Spiderbox 9000 vs. TM 6900?

[Sathappy]

Anyone could explain differences (real differences!) between TM6900 and
Spiderbox 9000? I'm not interesting in gift or similar, but in real
receiver specification. TM6900 has a very high audio/video quality, very
good blind scan and it's easy to use and very stable firmware. Last but not
least, a very good HD terrestrial tuner not present in Spiderbox. What
about this new receiver?

[echelon]

I would say that the spiderbox has similar specs , but hasnt got terrestrial tuner , so a truer comparison is with the 6800 I believe

adding n or c lines works ok with remote , possibly usb ?

white card works in slot

streaming works over homenet

apparently you can send n line out from box

but I dont have both boxes so cannot make a direct comparison

picture quality is superb on the spiderbox though

[Giga]

user(s) report bad BBC HD picture on spider (low def). TM 6900 HD super don't has this problem.

[tr8.]

user(s) report bad BBC HD picture on spider (low def). TM 6900 HD super don't has this problem.
I have both and I cannot see any picture quality difference, even on my latest Sony
Dont use the freeview as all my tv's now have it built in and most freesat HD built in as well and that is the same of my Sky dish.
To me the big difference is the "gift" it gives a massive range of extra channels, and the remote is far better than my tm's
I dont use the Spiderbox for my private share I use a tm9100 for that as we dont have many HD channels on it.
This may change but then we would all need to update our recievers on the share and what would you get for hd linux, to share? At the money the tm9100 was a bargain and works great.
For me the now the next of my 4 recievers to go will be the TM6900super, it adds nothing the other 3 can give ( spiderbox, dm7020, tm9100), if you asked before i got the spiderbox the DM was next to go.

All depends on what you want but I think a box that connects to a server, or is a server via rj45 is the only way forward softcams have had their day. same as cards and cams had theirs.

Problem is I would love a dm8000 as my next box but the price is wrong its a Bently at a Bently price, I chop and change so I should buy a Passat but cannot find that box yet.

Ps There is no point in having a Spiderbox without the Gift its like buying a car and being offered a full tank of fuel for £1, you just take it.

[Sathappy]

OK, thank you for your useful reply. Yes TM6900 has a high quality HD
terrestrial tuner inside, and this is important for me. What about
streaming? Can you send audio/video streaming directly out of the box? Only
in home network or to the internet, too? Infos about streaming are very
appreciated.

[Satcat]

Yes TM6900 has a high quality HD
terrestrial tuner inside, and this is important for me.

You obviously don't live in UK, as HD tuner no good here. AFASK

I prefer the Spiderbox as the TM doesn't have the facility to allow viewing 4:3 channels on a widescreen TV, filling the screen without distorting the picture. The Spiderbox does (Pan & scan)

[DARKMAN]

OK, thank you for your useful reply. Yes TM6900 has a high quality HD
terrestrial tuner inside, and this is important for me. What about
streaming? Can you send audio/video streaming directly out of the box? Only
in home network or to the internet, too? Infos about streaming are very
appreciated.


WHy TM like to compare all their business with SPIDERBOX !?

Because Spidrebox is TOP QUALITY...thats for sure


But haw can compare very old boxes with conexant CPU very very cheap naw with a New Generation Spiderbox !?

TM has conexant chipset very OLD one ..

SpiderBox has STI new chipset 7101 AND NEXT ONE STI 7111.

Spiderbox do not need any Terrestrial Options all channels in terretrial are in satellite ...usless


This old think usless naw...T2 is difent TM has no T2....only usless T...
T= 5 dollars ...can be add in spiderbox any time ...but we are not here to adverise box puting inside useless think like TM do allways.

Second Spiderbox has Better OTPIONS

1.Server Master with new camd to newcamd and to Ccam too


TM do not have that and that is priority TOP Quality s/w.

Client and in CCam and newcam 2.13.-.2.14

TM do not have that quality in CCam even to their linux Box imagine their non Linux boxes old style .


Home steraming from PC to TV

TM do not have that Opetions.


HOME Net 1 card to 9 stb

TM do not have that.


Blind scan much better then TM and many other Options .

Service +
Tm do not have that.

Neovo stream - Gift

Tm do not have that.


THE OSD AND ALL OPTIONS FACILITY SPIDERBOX HAVE

TM dream those to have it...and come in this section to show their self is still a life ..lol


TM all 6000 series can never compite with SPIDERBOX forget it/....TM and other who following TM

[DARKMAN]

Check some pictures and you understend the BIG diference ..lol

[tigertimtim]

certain freeview channals arent availasble 4 free on satellite like sky sports news, yesterday, some of the ch5 usa etc,
pls dont make out otherwise, be factual instead of using just hype n spin ,we get enough of that from the goverment!

[DARKMAN]

certain freeview channals arent availasble 4 free on satellite like sky sports news, yesterday, some of the ch5 usa etc,
pls dont make out otherwise, be factual instead of using just hype n spin ,we get enough of that from the goverment!


they are avalble by somethink else..Inform your self better and not only them even much more channels .Is not big lost Channnel 4 us. lol with 1000 of other channesl you get from spiderbox .


Ah terrestrial Boxes STB and Scrat terretrial STB are avalble for £ 10-15 any where if you are so much intersting .

[Sathappy]

Well Darkman.... yes we know that you must promote Spider.... yes! You sell it!
This is not reason why I opened this post.
I know everything you mentioned, but can we change receiver once per year?
So, I don't think that TM is old old old old..... I never doubt Spider is
newer, but TM6900 Super was a two-year old receiver, not two decades old.
And gift? Well, what happens when gift expires? Nobody knows that (neither
in your own forum Darkman.....). So, my question was: what are (REAL!!!)
differences between this boxes in terms of SATELLITE RECEPTION? Not server,
gift, chipset....... you told an interesting point: blind scan operation.
Well, TM6900 is very good in blind scan; where Spider is better?
And, what about stream options? They work only in home network or via
internet, too?

[DARKMAN]

Well Darkman.... yes we know that you must promote Spider.... yes! You sell it!

WHAT@S Wrong with IT....

HERE IS GOLDWAFER wo promoto not ME.


This is not reason why I opened this post.

I understen the real RESON why you OPEN...to show the technomate is still on LIFE


I know everything you mentioned, but can we change receiver once per year?

If you Knew everythink why you start this thread !?? That let me some doubts !

We are not here to think about your Pocket.!



So, I don't think that TM is old old old old..... I never doubt Spider is
newer, but TM6900 Super was a two-year old receiver, not two decades old.

TWO Years in this technology when thinks change days by days from SD to HD and HD to 3D is not only OLD BUT TM 6000 can be for British MUSEUM.ANTICE. lol


And gift? Well, what happens when gift expires? Nobody knows that (neither
in your own forum Darkman.....). So, my question was: what are (REAL!!!)

I know i do know and most of people knows....The word do not END in 2010....and i have and the s/w of spider allow many more theinks then Old TM to do.....get some more info...


differences between this boxes in terms of SATELLITE RECEPTION? Not server,
gift, chipset....... you told an interesting point: blind scan operation.
Well, TM6900 is very good in blind scan; where Spider is better?

READ MY POST.... like that you uderstend .


And, what about stream options? They work only in home network or via
internet, too?

if you read my post again and even in spiderbox section ********HOME STREAMING ... Mean home. But TM do not have that...

M8 ...i do not know what is your real propouse to compite TM with SPIDERBOX ...But looks you love so much your TM and you know the difences ,this doubt me you have open this thread for Diferent propouse!and difence from others i like to says what i think.

If you change or not change the STB every year that is your problem....not MY m8...

Is choise m8 Stay with your TM OLDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
and whatch channel5us and SkySport NEWS or buy New BOX Spiderbiox and whatch what you LIKE.

I think i have explain you all Naw.

[Sathappy]

Well Darkman, sorry but all we know your home board. Yes, it is not here,
but who developes and sell this EXTRAORDINARY BOX??? And where is your
EXTRAURDINARY Darkbox HD 2008 and all users that bought it?
Yes Technomate is again in life! And remember: if a receiver is REALLY
GOOD, you don't need this false promotion, the market decides itself
without you. If you make this, probably you need this.
That said, I know everything you mentioned (not everyghint! Just everything
you mentioned!!!), and you didn't reply to my question: what about REAL
differences in blind scan? Where Spider is better than 6900? And, what
about home streaming? Is it possible on internet, too? If you want reply I
will thank you.

[DARKMAN]

Well Darkman, sorry but all we know your home board. Yes, it is not here,
but who developes and sell this EXTRAORDINARY BOX??? And where is your
EXTRAURDINARY Darkbox HD 2008 and all users that bought it?
Yes Technomate is again in life! And remember: if a receiver is REALLY
GOOD, you don't need this false promotion, the market decides itself
without you. If you make this, probably you need this.
That said, I know everything you mentioned (not everyghint! Just everything
you mentioned!!!), and you didn't reply to my question: what about REAL
differences in blind scan? Where Spider is better than 6900? And, what
about home streaming? Is it possible on internet, too? If you want reply I
will thank you.


You have eneterin this thread for one propouse Not for spiderbox ....but somethink else...



Stop talking Bully.... About My home or your home....

Certen My home is not here, but even your does not look to be in this section.

Go to PAPA...TM

M8 READ more the Infos read more the Spiderbox OWNERS not ME...
and do not Hijacak threads ... ( Darkbox is in same please when TM 6000 are .....with soft keys...becouse both are old technology )

ABOUT Spiderbox Blind scan
HERE from WILLIAM

What is best Blind Scan Receiver available ?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Feed Hunting today
SpiderBox 9000HD is now one of the best HD blind scan receiver to have read my review at the end of this thread.
Lots of changes have taken place over the last 5 years of feed hunting,
Some earlier blind scan receivers such as the Nextwave single blind scan & the Coship blind scan receivers paved the way for the Feed Hunting as a hobby to begin,
The 2nd wave of power scan/blind scan receivers FortecStar & Manhattan Plaza ST range lead the way to show us what you could find with a blind scan receiver,
Then along came the 3rd wave of blind scan receivers proved to be much faster with easier menu's such as the TM1000 series & the Vantage X200 series,
TheTM1500 CI super+ proved to be one of the best enthusiasts feed hunting receivers revealing 90% of all feeds with this receiver then 4:2:2 feeds & broadcasts started to be found with the new blind scan receivers but no capability to view 4:2:2 was available to the enthusiast,
As more feeds used 4:2:2 with more detail quality for HD tv feeds 4:2:2 is a form of encryption as SD receivers cannot view this transmission so the SS1 computer card evolved & the now defunct Euro 1080 HD 4:2:2 tv broadcast changed from MPEG-2 to MPEG-4 the Quali tv receiver became redundant this led to a large quantity of these receivers being used for 4:2:2 feeds some greedy sellers charged up to £500 for a receiver that only cost £70 to produce,
Then along came the TM6900HD super blind scan HD receiver this is the best enthusiast receiver currently available & will find all Ku band broadcasts in MPEG-2 ,MPEG-4,SD,HD,4:2:0 also HD & SD 4:2:2 but will not allow you to view the 4:2:2 feeds after several attempts to build a commercially successful 4:2:2 capable receiver the AZ Box has proved to be the next generation of receiver that the enthusiast can use to view these broadcasts you still need an HD blind scan receiver such as the TM6800HD Super+ or Vantage HD 8000 S PVR to find the feeds in 4:2:2 then load the parameters onto the AZ Box,
The breakthrough will come when the AZ Box has a capable thorough fast blind scan to find all broadcasts this will then be the Ultimate blind scan receiver to have.

[Sathappy]

You continue NOT REPLYING to my question. First: do you need cut & paste
from your home board to reply here? And do you need opinion from others?
Second: yes surely this is not my home, but I'm looking in satellite forum
to receive correct and useful replies (as I always received here!), not
promotional messages. I opened this asking differences between two
receivers that I believe are two high quality boxes; you replied telling
that YOUR box is fantastic and all other are old.... I don't think this is
a good way to use this ALL MEMBERS home.
Last: Remember that I'm in satellite TV from over than 20 years (late 80s),
and I know how this business works. And we all know there are Asian
manufacturers making receivers on request on which everyone having know-how
can develop or "patch" firmware. And when I mentioned Darkbox HD 2008....
well, it was an EXTRAURDINARY box! You said that, or not?
So, you are a GREAT DEVELOPER (it's true!), but.... sorry, you are not so polite!

[DARKMAN]

You continue NOT REPLYING to my question. First: do you need cut & paste
from your home board to reply here? And do you need opinion from others?
Second: yes surely this is not my home, but I'm looking in satellite forum
to receive correct and useful replies (as I always received here!), not
promotional messages. I opened this asking differences between two
receivers that I believe are two high quality boxes; you replied telling
that YOUR box is fantastic and all other are old.... I don't think this is
a good way to use this ALL MEMBERS home.
Last: Remember that I'm in satellite TV from over than 20 years (late 80s),
and I know how this business works. And we all know there are Asian
manufacturers making receivers on request on which everyone having know-how
can develop or "patch" firmware. And when I mentioned Darkbox HD 2008....
well, it was an EXTRAURDINARY box! You said that, or not?
So, you are a GREAT DEVELOPER (it's true!), but.... sorry, you are not so polite!

M8 is not My fault You do not like to read.....

I have write not only in Blind scan ( comes from very popular and respected Members for Feeds WILLIAMS 1....But all other options difences..mate trust me is Big Huge difences...with TM in CPU nd S/w in Support...In quality and Chennles it self ..becouse the GOAL in end for the end users is to see more channels..

NAW just to rimend you again the TM USERS are naw left only by some sort of softkeys ...is not support from TM but from Members of this forum or others ,Where do you is the future of TM 6000 boxes !?

SOON all

TM 1000 Series CPU conexant
TM 3000 Series CPU Conexant
TM 5000 Series CPU Conexant
TM 6000 series CPU conexant
TM 7100 big FAIL

will be douwn so Old chipset....

To explain you in term Politly lol
All manifatures have move out of this chipset CPU only some chinese manufatyres $20 Receiver stb ..

is not TM fault lol...his manufatures where they produse are faling douwn....like Hubteck and Integra and they do old thinks...

To gave you the picture here of CPUs....

Most Linux best one DREAMBOX and VU+ are IN the BEST Cheap CPU BOADCOM...n1...

The bets STB most of them PASING in STI 7101 or STI 7111
Like SPIDERBOX even Q box and others.....


Where TM is MOVING !??? on old CPU Conexant or
again over Cheap Chipset CPU NXP.... HD STB linux copy style ....
On china this CPU cost 18 dollars and all stb $50 dollars...


This is i do not beleve any more in TM ...not becase i have personal issu M8......but because is the reality....But many people do not like the reality that is not my fault...

I have allways sayd i know to separte the business from Hoby...and i have show that all ways ,TM do not show that never...

I have says all ways Dreambox is one of the BEST box ,even who produse DREAMBOX Company and OWNER i HATE THEM PERSONAL ISSU..

Same for TM i had nothink with the OWNER of TM and even Company it self...but TM is not Good Machine naw and their style of handelling the business all ways ai am talking about Their stbs are wrong naw...

Maybe before they was lacky becouse they have MY and other support naw they have to walk by their self.....and we see haw it goes.M8..

In end of my discussion i can says Sell Your old TM in **** when even TM is selling their boxes their self naw because no other plases sell them lol....and Buy from OUR BEST SPONSOR OF THIS FORUM the SPIDERBOX HD and you will see you will not regrete it...you will love it ...if you do not trust me, ask the members of this forum.....they will asnwer to you soon.

have a nice Dream about TM M8,but even in Dream TM 6000 is still OLD.lol
bye bye.

[echelon]

I had a samsung 9500 viaci for about 8 years and its still working ok , and I have had a tm1500 for the last 5 years , still working ok too

in a years time this spiderbox will still work regardless of any gift , so they dont all become useless overnight

but technology moves on , people change their mobile phones regularly , televisions , laptops , and various other techy gear , but that doesnt mean what they previously bought stops working all of a sudden

if you are happy with the tm6900 , keep it , simple as that

if you wanted to actually buy a spiderbox then do so , if not then dont buy one , simple as that

arguing over words isnt going to help anybody

personally , I like technomates ever since I bought my tm1500 , and I have the tm9100 as well , great box but let down by the patchmakers not bringing out stable images

if dm and magic have moved on from the techno then that is their prerogative and its up to technomate what they do next , which at the moment isnt a lot from what I can see

I rate my spiderbox as like a tm1500 but vastly improved with more features than you can shake a stick at , and anyone who wants to replace a tm SD box should really think about getting a spiderbox , whereas if you already have HD then maybe its not the same leap going from a tm6900 to a spiderbox 9000 , I grant you that

a spiderbox may last 8 to 10 years , but times always move on and some techy stuff is obsolete in one year nowadays , so any talk of what happens after a year is irrelevant

and yes sky scramble ch4HD , ch5usa , fiver and sky 3 , but thats always been the case for any box which is why the freesat card can be obtained if required , so its totally irrelevant to a spiderbox when mentioning features. but stick a £20 freesat card in and its a different story , same as with many other boxes too

from now on I would like to see no name calling or personal attacks and lets stick to facts only in comparing boxes , and in the case of these 2 boxes lets also leave out freeview as well , and really should be comparing the tm6800+ to the spiderbox 9000 as its more relevant in that they both do not have freeview tuners and so its comparing like with like ( 2 HD sat boxes with lan , card slot , cam slot , hdmi socket , and patches available for digi tv etc )

[DARKMAN]

yes totally Echelon is right,...let's come to real support
Jus to rimnder about patches about this YEAR.

Importend HACK.:

Spiderbox been n1
VIA 2 ,6 Hack Patch


Spiderbox
Irdeto Hack real patch months before then TM all series...

Without Nominating a lot of 1000 channels they have free from Gift and service+..Costing 10 times more then box it self.Is not that the support !?


about hardware and s/w i all ready explain ,i do not think i need to write more.

[Sathappy]

Well, I understand CPU differences. But, for example, I have two computers:
one has the newer and most updated Quad Core processor, the best
motherboard, the fastest hard disk and so on; the other has a good dual
core CPU, a two years old motherboard, a 5400 RPM hard disk.... well, no
doubt that first PC is better! But, what must I do with these two PCs? If I
want the best, maximum performances, maximum quality in all application I
choose the first; but if I'm not interesting in particular application....
do you think the second PC would be to trash?
As I said, my goal is not GIFT, share, cccam..... I'm interesting in
SATELLITE RECEPTION!!! Not just using a dual feed dish but with 3 metres
dish! So, my question was not regarding differences in electronic
components used inside the box (I know that!), but in REAL DIFFERENCES in
satellite reception!
I justg read William posts, and I know he is very appreciated feed hunter,
but I can tell you that many known feed hunters WOULD NEVER CHANGE TM6900
with Spiderbox (you can find this in other forums).
Finally, I'm very disappointed the way a box is considered good or not.....
it seems that gift and cccam and similar are the only important parameters.
Bye bye satellite TV.

[scrapman]

Well, I understand CPU differences. But, for example, I have two computers:
one has the newer and most updated Quad Core processor, the best
motherboard, the fastest hard disk and so on; the other has a good dual
core CPU, a two years old motherboard, a 5400 RPM hard disk.... well, no
doubt that first PC is better! But, what must I do with these two PCs? If I
want the best, maximum performances, maximum quality in all application I
choose the first; but if I'm not interesting in particular application....
do you think the second PC would be to trash?
As I said, my goal is not GIFT, share, cccam..... I'm interesting in
SATELLITE RECEPTION!!! Not just using a dual feed dish but with 3 metres
dish! So, my question was not regarding differences in electronic
components used inside the box (I know that!), but in REAL DIFFERENCES in
satellite reception!
I justg read William posts, and I know he is very appreciated feed hunter,
but I can tell you that many known feed hunters WOULD NEVER CHANGE TM6900
with Spiderbox (you can find this in other forums).
Finally, I'm very disappointed the way a box is considered good or not.....
it seems that gift and cccam and similar are the only important parameters.
Bye bye satellite TV.


best box ive had is the spider,urm whats computers got to do with sat tv?????:woot-035:

[maud]

Having read these posts,I would also ask what happens when the gift runs out or another new box comes out,an example of this is the GDS7000HD not seen any thing new for this box for months,myself I am disgusted, people do not have money to keep throwing away on new boxes,Why dont you just answer the question instead of trying to sell the box.:beatdeadhorse5:

[Sathappy]

Speaking about computer was just an example to say that a two years old
satellite receiver could not be consider to trash.
So, if you said Spider is the best box you had: well, I repeat again my
question for which I opened this thread. What is REAL (REAL!) advantages
compared to receivers like TM6900 or similar? Again: I'm speaking about
satellite reception, not decryption via softcam, cccam, gift......
So, what about real tuner sensitive? Anyone made measurements or lab tests?
What about symbol rate accuracy in blind scan? What about performances in C
band or for low signals in Ku band? What about PID entry?

[Friendly-Face]

Guys do you not understand english ?
Spiderbox 9000 and 7000 can be used as server and client
As server you can run it with Newcamd, as Client you can run ti with CCcam.

What does this mean for you and me that have the box or want to buy the box with out gift.

Well, one thing is that you can read you,r card for sure with no problems, second thing is that by using your Newcamd you can easly share you,r card local and out of the LAN and third you can connect yo any CCcam server atm.

Now tell me another box that is HD at the price of the Spiderbox that can give you so much for so little money ?

I use my box now as Server, have added an Milenium Plus card on it and share with the rest of my boxes localy, my conax card and nds card runs perfect with it

to me it seems that some ppl that do not have the box just post for the sake of it, or to make trouble. Common guys this is a box with many possibilities even when the gift runs out, as long as you can add an C-line and giv a way a N-line you,r box will not die as long as CS exists.

PS: i do not care who has made the box, and i have no intrest on this what so ever, this is only my own veiw on this box, and belive me i do have many other boxes that i test every day, the last on my collection is Vantage VT-1.

[spiderlover]

Having read these posts,I would also ask what happens when the gift runs out or another new box comes out,an example of this is the GDS7000HD not seen any thing new for this box for months,myself I am disgusted, people do not have money to keep throwing away on new boxes,Why dont you just answer the question instead of trying to sell the box.:beatdeadhorse5:

Dude WTF! Have you worked out how much it would cost to subscribe to all those packages on the gift for 12 months? The DigitALB package alone is like nearly 400 quid for 12 month full package and your worrying about what happens after the gift expires in 12 months time when the box only costs £199?

After the gift expires you can use cccam to c/s with your friends or connect to a pay server or what ever floats your boat.

If you want to keep getting the gift channels after 12 months expire then buy another box! it ain’t rocket science dude!

[Satcat]

urm whats computers got to do with sat tv?????:woot-035:

Quite a lot.

[spiderlover]

Speaking about computer was just an example to say that a two years old
satellite receiver could not be consider to trash.
So, if you said Spider is the best box you had: well, I repeat again my
question for which I opened this thread. What is REAL (REAL!) advantages
compared to receivers like TM6900 or similar? Again: I'm speaking about
satellite reception, not decryption via softcam, cccam, gift......
So, what about real tuner sensitive? Anyone made measurements or lab tests?
What about symbol rate accuracy in blind scan? What about performances in C
band or for low signals in Ku band? What about PID entry?

Man we could sit here all day long telling you how good the spiderbox is but let's be honest, you'll never buy one so why keep wasting everyones time.

Ask yourself this, if your so into your TM! why would you concider changing it for something else?

It doesn't matter what anyone says to you, your not interested in buying one anyway so stop the pantomime.

My guess is your a forum troll probably connected to TM in some way.

[Sathappy]

Well, if I continue to repeat my original question is because ANYONE
REPLIED!!! If I opened this post is because I'm interesting in Spiderbox
that seems a very good receiver (if not, I would not lost my time!). But
havint another very good one (TM6900) I'm considering if there are reason
to replace it!
Anyone told me how this Spiderbox is good. All you said: specification and
great performances in same direction in which I'M NOT INTERESING!!! Could
you please reply to my last question regarding real performances about
satellite tuner? Or, probably, anyone tested it? And if so.... how can you
say this is so good? This is not a pantomima, this is information request.

[echelon]

Well, if I continue to repeat my original question is because ANYONE
REPLIED!!! If I opened this post is because I'm interesting in Spiderbox
that seems a very good receiver (if not, I would not lost my time!). But
havint another very good one (TM6900) I'm considering if there are reason
to replace it!
Anyone told me how this Spiderbox is good. All you said: specification and
great performances in same direction in which I'M NOT INTERESING!!! Could
you please reply to my last question regarding real performances about
satellite tuner? Or, probably, anyone tested it? And if so.... how can you
say this is so good? This is not a pantomima, this is information request.

ok , I have had enough of this pantomime !!

start a new thread and make sure you ask SPECIFIC TECHNICAL QUESTIONS that you want specific answers to , and only replies that deal with those specific questions will be allowed , anything else will be deleted immediately

no name calling , no off topics , no questions about other forums or dealers etc , and no questions about how long the "gift" will or wont last etc

this thread is now closed !