Which dish?

[Matrix2010]

Probably I must replace my good old 3 metres mesh dish by KTI, because after 13 years of use its performance are fading quickly. I'm looking for another good dish because I'm interesting in C band, too (not only in Ku band), and I want to keep my Chaparral Corotor feedhorn to receive both frequency bands with the same dish. Unfortunately it seems that mesh dishes are outdated, but a solid 3 metres dish is too heavy for my Egis motor and probably too dangerous during windy days. What about a good solid 2,4 metres dish? I would prefer a metal dish (not fiber), around 50 kg weight.
For example: h**p://www.********.com/catalogo/20.56.html
What do you think? Any other suggestion and opinion is very appreciated. Thank you.

[cosworth4x4]

why is the dish fading ? there is a kti 2.4(if i recall) on ******* site at the moment.

[Matrix2010]

Hi cosworth4x4, thank you for your reply. Well, probably reflection capacity is gone, gain's dish is everyday lower and lower, and performances (particularly in Ku band) are very very poor now.
Unfortunately the site you suggested was hidden by the server.... So, could you please check the link I posted? What do you think about that dish? It seems not so heavy, about 52 kg for 240 cm diameter.
Do you know how calculate wind load differences between solid and mesh dish? So, which differences between 3 metres mesh and 2,4 metres solid during windy days? Thank you.

[tr8.]

I don't understand why the dish is fading.
I have 2 channel masters 1.2m and 1.8m over 25 years old each and they are actually better now than when new as the LNB's have improved to give better returns,

[Matrix2010]

I don't know why but here it is. I tried to replace LNB and I recently purchased a new Corotor in the USA (obviously Wideband version for Europe) but situation didn't change, all signals became lower and lower everyday. I attempted many times a very fine adjustment of feedhorn on dish' focus, I checked carefully dish profile too and it's good, but the dish doesn't work anymore. This situation began some months ago, and signals are lowering and lowering, so I suspect that dish' reflection is going off. Please remember this is a mesh dish, probably less stable during the years as your solid Channel Master. So, I took my decision to change my dish, and I would like to try a solid 2,4 metres dish.

[cosworth4x4]

_http://www.ehow.com/how_12186194_calculate-wind-load-satellite-dish.html

a quick read through on that over 50mph mesh does not make any difference , ive not seen any info on that dish weather its good or bad , there are some poor dishes out there so speak to someone who has one before jumping in.

the kti is on the bay up for avction .

[Matrix2010]

Oh, 50 mph, how much in km/h??? Sorry for bad question but I have no idea......
Thank you for other suggestions. So it seems that KTI is really outdated. Hoping to find a new dish for a good satellite reception in both C and Ku band.

[cosworth4x4]

50 mph about 80 km/h its still odd you losing signal there are plenty of reports about the net about metal dishes warping over time .

do you live in a high wind location ?

is the cable ok ?

[Matrix2010]

Yes my cable is ok, and I made all above tests using my meter on the roof near the dish.... very very poor signal you know. OK for wind spped: so, 80 km/h is a high speed in my area... it happens, but not so often. But we have very cold winter sometimes with ice and snow. So, do you know wind load differences between 3 metres mesh and 2,4 metres solid? In web site mentioned above it seems that a mesh dish receives 40% less wind force than solid one but only at low wind speed. If I get a 2,4 metres dish its diameter is not so large as 3 metress..... what do you think? Thank you.

[cosworth4x4]

i really cannot help you with working out wind load difference , wasnt the link i posted any good.

if u are struggling to receive on a 3m are you sure a 2.4 will do ?

what sizes are other using in youre location.

[Matrix2010]

Yes link is useful (thanks!), but calculation is not so simple.... I will try to understand. Well, I'm not struggling to receive using a 3 metres dish, I'm struggling with a non-working 3 metres!! Until some months ago my dish was OK, now it's fading as I told earlier.
So, this 240 cm dish (see link in my first post in this thread) seems a Fortec Star one, probably rebranded. See here:
_http://www.********.com/240.html
Anyone experienced with these dishes? What about steel dishes? I never used a steel one..... Thank you for all your information.

[cosworth4x4]

im sure they are sold in the uk by map**n and poor quality signal wise.

[cosworth4x4]

Yes link is useful (thanks!), but calculation is not so simple.... I will try to understand. Well, I'm not struggling to receive using a 3 metres dish, I'm struggling with a non-working 3 metres!! Until some months ago my dish was OK, now it's fading as I told earlier.

understood that bit , can you see a problem with the dish is it corroding/rusting ? you say you dont live in a high wind location so assume its not warped .

[Matrix2010]

Yes there are clear sign of rusting, not warped. I'm not sure but I believe that dishes are sold in UK by M***in, as you said. You told me they have poor signal quality..... Have you other possible solution? I'm looking at a prime focus (not offset) 240 cm dish, and not so heavy. For these reasons I discarded Prodelin or Andrew dishes.... they are fantastic, but too heavy and I could not install them on my Egis motor. Any idea is greatly appreciated. Thank you.

[Barney]

My 2Meter prime focus dish .. fortec star i think but cant be sure as it was painted by a professional before i bought it 5 years or so ago ..it has seen winds of 141 kmph last november which was real scary and still stood firm .. its ground mounted of course ,
and its a steel dish one piece no petals like those on map-l-i-n ..
preforms really well for feedhunting 42e - 30w no problem ..recording a boxnation feed on 27.5w at the min
using Inverto black pro 0.2db C120 LNB

i also have a fortec star 1.6m steel offset dish laying in my garage in mint condition with matching andrews polar mount specific designed for that dish and all the bits i mite put it on the e- b-a-y site soon it preforms as good every bit as my 2m prime focus dish .
Reason i have to sell it simply is i dont have any room to put it up anywhere which really is frustrating as i got at the min 4 motorised dishes [ 2x triax 88cm , 2m prime focus , 1.2 andrews offset ] and one fixed 78cm dish already working .

A good Solid heavy ground mounted pole will be best option to avoid wind factors
Fortec is a great dish but needs to be steel and solid 1 piece dish with no warping all my dishes except for some slight rust on my prime focus dish are in mint condition i always use lots of grease and a decent coat of Lithium grease to protect my dishes especially in great warm summer weather like today to prepare for harsh winter ahead .
And sure prime focus dishes steel 1 piece dish are difficult to beat i dont care what anyone says and a 2m prime focus like mine is fantastic altogether
to think i bought it just for £50 with polar mount to save it from being dumped is quite crazy but im glad i did buy it as its still in excellent condition so there is some great quality big prime focus dishes out there so dont give up hope in finding one ..
good luck : )

--
Barney

[Matrix2010]

Unfortunately it seems that Fortec Star sold now are petalised and not 1 piece..... I must install on the roof, pole is very well mounted but you can understand my worrying about wind. Also, as I said, I'm looking at not so heavy dishes. I discovered now a web site:
_http://www.*******.eu
It seems an english manufacturer.... I will browse better tomorrow.

[Marco]

Which dish , i must say,
i have had the same for years

triax 1.5
Inverto Black

[satwyn]

you could try elite antennas (they used to be precision) i have used these dishes for some years they make dishes from small to over 3M in solid alloy prime focus as for the polar mount you may need to change your egris mount i have made my own in the past for the precision dishes so i could help you out if needed

[Matrix2010]

No problem to modify my Egis mount. This motor (in the past was called Nitec Robot, now Egis) has four large bolt on its head on which we installed a large metal plate on which you can mount any type of antenna (we tried a lot). The problem is: weight! This is a very high quality AZ/EL motor but it can't hold more than 60-70 kg, so this is the reason I need a lighter dish like, as I said, F****** Star. But I will look ****** Sat now.

[satwyn]

personally i would not use fortec dishes but the precision dishes are high quality spun alloy dishes i use mine 1.8M for both c/ku/and now KA band for the irish channels on 9E 20.185L as i said your motor and polar mount could be changed for a more robust type i'm using a modified irte polar mount with my dish not sure if elite do a maching polar mount for their dishes

[nico]

I don't understand why the dish is fading.
I have 2 channel masters 1.2m and 1.8m over 25 years old each and they are actually better now than when new as the LNB's have improved to give better returns,

Hi mate where about are you are you in uk and what do you pick up with your 1.8 as thinking of getting a channel master dish.

[satwyn]

channel master dishes are quality i live in north west wales not the easiest dishes to setup for c band as they are mostly offset type dishes but adaptors are available my 1.8M is not up at the moment i have a channel master 1.2M for everyday use but c band can be picked up from many sats using the precision dish 37W 5W 1W 27W to name a few not all c band transponders can be picked up using this size dish so bigger would give you more

[Matrix2010]

Well, maybe my previous posts were not so clear. Egis Robot is not a motor in a polar mount, and it has nothing to do with polar mount either. It's a solid AZ/EL unit including its own particular control box and its own big cable reaching a proprietary 18-pin connector. Probably the oldest satellite fans remember it. It's a very high quality system, but it has two limitations: 1) It can't hold so heavy dish; 2) It doesn't perform declination adjustment, so I must adjust polarity in feedhorn for perfect skew on all satellites. But if you accept these limitation (solutions are easy) you have a very stable motorised dish. So, for all these reason I don't want to change this motor and I can't modify it. As I said, now I have a mesh 3 metres KTI that was moved without any problem for 13 years, and I'm looking for a new dish to replace it. As mesh dish seem outdated, I'm thinking to use a solid but more little dish (solid 3 metres is too heavy), so I'm going back to initial question about a possible 2,4m C/Ku band prime focus dish. Please note that I don't need offset dishes and I would prefer metal to fibre glass. Any new suggestion is always appreciated. Thank you.

[satwyn]

Well, maybe my previous posts were not so clear. Egis Robot is not a motor in a polar mount, and it has nothing to do with polar mount either. It's a solid AZ/EL unit including its own particular control box and its own big cable reaching a proprietary 18-pin connector. Probably the oldest satellite fans remember it. It's a very high quality system, but it has two limitations: 1) It can't hold so heavy dish; 2) It doesn't perform declination adjustment, so I must adjust polarity in feedhorn for perfect skew on all satellites. But if you accept these limitation (solutions are easy) you have a very stable motorised dish. So, for all these reason I don't want to change this motor and I can't modify it. As I said, now I have a mesh 3 metres KTI that was moved without any problem for 13 years, and I'm looking for a new dish to replace it. As mesh dish seem outdated, I'm thinking to use a solid but more little dish (solid 3 metres is too heavy), so I'm going back to initial question about a possible 2,4m C/Ku band prime focus dish. Please note that I don't need offset dishes and I would prefer metal to fibre glass. Any new suggestion is always appreciated. Thank you. elite antennas do make a 2.M prime focus dish you can buy just the dish face and arms but i have no idea of the weight have a look on their site for more details 2.2M should perform better than your 3M mesh dish at ku band but not sure about c band most channels on c band in europe are also available on ku band

[Matrix2010]

Satwyn, could you please tell me Elite's web site, or any other web site where I can see/buy them? I really don't find those dishes using Google.... I found *************.eu but I'm not sure they are Elite dishes and it seems that diameters around 2.4m are not available (from 1.8 they skip to 3.0 metres). Thank you.

[satwyn]

Satwyn, could you please tell me Elite's web site, or any other web site where I can see/buy them? I really don't find those dishes using Google.... I found *********.eu but I'm not sure they are Elite dishes and it seems that diameters around 2.4m are not available (from 1.8 they skip to 3.0 metres). Thank you.elite antennas 01568612050 just google elite antennas for more details they do make a 2.2M prime focus spun alloy dish dishes are spun on site in the uk

[Matrix2010]

Ohh, what a dish!!! Very very useful suggestion you know. I didn't know these dishes, I confused them with Primesat. I will evaluate all my options, but these are certainly very high quality antennas.
Do you use one of that? Could you please tell me your experience? Any experience or review of Elite large dishes (between 1.8m and 3m) is very appreciated. I hope they work with combined C/Ku band feedhorn (Chaparral Corotor or similar). Thank you again.

[satwyn]

Ohh, what a dish!!! Very very useful suggestion you know. I didn't know these dishes, I confused them with Primesat. I will evaluate all my options, but these are certainly very high quality antennas.
Do you use one of that? Could you please tell me your experience? Any experience or review of Elite large dishes (between 1.8m and 3m) is very appreciated. I hope they work with combined C/Ku band feedhorn (Chaparral Corotor or similar). Thank you again.yes no problem with chaparral corotor2 i have the 1.8M dish i have been thinking of getting rid of mine don't use all that much these days i used to swap from ku to c band lnbs better results than the corotor2 for c band 11K lnb and ku invacom .3 c120 flange also inverto ka band lnbf has been used for 9E 20.185L for the irish RTE channels

[Matrix2010]

This thread is growing..... but I want make a very careful choice. Today I evaluated Prodelin dishes, too. They are SMC antennas. What do you think?

[satwyn]

This thread is growing..... but I want make a very careful choice. Today I evaluated Prodelin dishes, too. They are SMC antennas. What do you think?i have the 1.2M prodelin very well made dishes and heavy don't use mine as no advantage over the channel master 1.2M

[Matrix2010]

Well, I'm here again. Between Prodelin and Elite I would choose the second. Elite dishes seem more robust and well built. But, I read carefully their PDF catalogue and it's not so clear you know. What about dish' weight? In the first part of the catalogue I read that 1.8m weight is 27 kg, in other part a.8m seems weighting 75 kg! Also, 2.2m weights 81 kg and 2.4m 140!! How so big differences? I would like to know exact weight of reflector and brackets without any mount or other accessories. Also, I know that single band LNB are better than combined feedhorn like Corotor or similar, but I have any other solution to receive both bands. Can anyone tell me in detail any feedback? Thank you again to all members.
ps: Anyone experienced Elite technical support? If it's good, I could try phone to them.

[Matrix2010]

After very very long evaluation, probably I'm taking my final decision now. What about this?

_http://www.***************.eu/satellite_dishes_prime_focus_1800 cm.php

Here you can find 180 cm but it seems that a 230 cm exist. It is a Prime Focus 1-piece aluminium dish, and it promises very well. Anyone tested these dishes?

[Matrix2010]

What means "75% on jsc sports 7w"? If 75% is receiver's bar value.... well, I don't think this is a good test. I hope to read reviews by real tester. Thank you.

[Matrix2010]

Anyone tested Famaval dishes?

They are built in Portugal. Always speaking about large dishes, around 2.3-2.4m. Thanks.

[Matrix2010]

....and finally I choose the new 2.3m dish by Primesat. It's a prime focus 1-piece aluminium dish. When I will install it I will report all results.

[satwyn]

....and finally I choose the new 2.3m dish by Primesat. It's a prime focus 1-piece aluminium dish. When I will install it I will report all results.the elite dishes have gone very expensive 600 approx for the 1.5m dish only the 2.2m would be well over £1000 i should imagine my 1.8m elite dish was £700 incuding polar mount and stand a few years ago

[Matrix2010]

I evaluated Elite dishes, they seem great but their weight is very high. 2.4m is a massive 140 kg! More than 2.4m in fiberglass by Raven! It's not possible for me. This new Primesat is around 35 kg, very very light. Unfortunately Primesat is not cheap, too. Which motor are you using with your Elite 180?

[Satcat]

Personally I can't understand why a bit of rust would reduce the preformance of a dish that much. If there were parts of it rusted away, then yes.
I would just clean it up and repaint it.
I would also have thought that even a rusty 3m dish would be better than a new 2.4m one.

[satwyn]

I evaluated Elite dishes, they seem great but their weight is very high. 2.4m is a massive 140 kg! More than 2.4m in fiberglass by Raven! It's not possible for me. This new Primesat is around 35 kg, very very light. Unfortunately Primesat is not cheap, too. Which motor are you using with your Elite 180?i use a polar mount with an actuator arm

[unimesh7Fowner]

Probably I must replace my good old 3 metres mesh dish by KTI, because after 13 years of use its performance are fading quickly. I'm looking for another good dish because I'm interesting in C band, too (not only in Ku band), and I want to keep my Chaparral Corotor feedhorn to receive both frequency bands with the same dish. Unfortunately it seems that mesh dishes are outdated, but a solid 3 metres dish is too heavy for my Egis motor and probably too dangerous during windy days. What about a good solid 2,4 metres dish? I would prefer a metal dish (not fiber), around 50 kg weight.
For example: _h**p://www.********.com/catalogo/20.56.html
What do you think? Any other suggestion and opinion is very appreciated. Thank you.

It makes no sense that the mesh is gone unless your mesh holes have gone larger over the last 13 years . In theory the smaller the hole the better for Ku band( not so much for C band).

For a mesh dish check with the manufacturer the Ku gain of the dish as the mesh hole should not be larger than a certain diameter( I think its about 1mm , recalling from memory). If the holes are less than this then it makes no difference with a solid one for Ku band .

I prefer smc dish than solid dish. A solid metal dish can warp especially the petalised ones. ( may not be visible) while a smc cannot warp ( It can break off or crack which of cause you can notice).

So still want a solid one?

I have a 2.3 unimesh dish. I was also having trouble aligning it . After investigating it, one the many problems I have is that was a bit of play on the declination stud where the dish rotates.( in service since 1997) ( probably does not matter if it is a small dish) This play is magnified by about 10mm at the edge . So the dish drops down by by around 5mm on way near the west limit and 5mm the other way near the east limit.

So I suspect yours being a 3m dish thing will get worst if your axial is worn

I just cured partly this problem partly yesterday by fitting an axial single direction thrust bearing on the support of the inclination stud. this stud rotates as the dish moves. To be perfect I should be fitting two sets . one on top and the other below the stationary plate . I only fitted the bearing on the top . Fitting the other one below the plate means removing the dish from the H-H mount. This was not done yesterday as it was quite windy and I don't was to take the risk ( as the saying goes the risk out ways the benefits) I will probably fit it during summer 2014.

what a difference it made . I was only getting SNR OF 35 -50% before .Now I am getting around 60 to 85 %. on 30w 13E( 85 % now before 50%)) and 42 E were the best results .The remaining satellite had around 10 to 15 % improvements. 45E is now missing. I should be getting more as I have still not tuned the lnb angle, elevation, declination angles yet.. I am planning to source a cheap satlook micro hd meter to do this.

as others have said rust on the surface does not make any difference unless the mesh holes have become larger which will reduce the Ku gain

Try doing this test

1) Move the dish slowly east limit and then to the west limit and put your ear near as possible to the moving parts of the mount and listen to any unusual noise ( like checking your bearing of the car wheel or your washing machine bearing)

2) ask someone to lift the edges of your dish slightly up and left or right ( Not down as gravity is doing that for you) . you can then check for any play at the moving parts of the mountings. by listening for any suspicious sound and also for play at the edges of the dish

You have a 3meter dish , so a small error in the worn out moving parts can make a very large error at the edges of the dish( in physics this is call the lever principle) . and I strongly suspect this is the case according to the symptoms you have described ie your signals are getting weaker and weaker every day. ( unless the mesh holes are getting bigger and bigger lol ) or perhaps the wind is moving it placing it at a different angle due to the worn rotating axle.

Do you move your dish quite often?

Mind you during the anagoge days some receiver( by using some negative feed back using the maximum signal level and the positioning pulses) can compensate for this but to date no positioner or receiver with deseqc or usual can compensate for this ( not to my knowledge but can anyone please correct if I am wrong)


So the moral of the story is

why change your car if the bearing is gone just get it repaired but if your washing machine bearing is gone then just changed it as is cheaper and better to get a new washing machine .

Don't replace the dish if you are not sure why the symptoms are .Investigate whether the problem can solved repaired or completely replaced economically . Unless you are feedup with the old dish and want a new one ( Like buying new car and have plenty of funding )

In theory its the same principle , only difference is the field of application and economics

You can speak to david of *** , a well known ********** for satellites for he has a degree in electronics engineering. I believe he also owns pr***s*t or has some interest in it . He has helped me a lot in the past over the phone

I hope this helps and is not too technical to you as I am a retired electronic design engineer and do ( still doing) my own car repairs and I also used to work as domestic repair engineer for a short while but not on satellite dishes( except for my own one and friends and family) as I don't fancy drilling holes on the wall on the top of a ladder everyday on unfamiliar properties.

I will post some photos of how I fitted these bearings on my unimesh dish shortly. All components were sourced from Rs Comp*nents.

[Matrix2010]

Hi unimesh7Fowner, thank you for your explanation.
So, I decided to replace my dish after long long long tests using professional meter. As I said, I use Egis motor to move the dish, so my problem has any connection with elevation, declination and so on. This is a high-precision 2-axis motor has no mechanical adjustment (just electronic one with its own controller), and it can not make wrong dish pointing. The only chance of a wrong pointing occurs when the entire mounting (pole, brackets....) moves from the original position, and this is not my situation. Probably my dish lost its reflection specs, antenna noise temperature is growing and growing, and snr is lowering and lowering. Honestly I don't know exactly why, I don't know if holes are larger now, but this dish is to trash. As final test I replace this 3m dish with an old 1.2m one from a friend.... Well, it's perfectly working and in Ku band I have better signal than my 3m!! So, about David..... oh yes! I phoned to him many times, he's a very kind person and his knowhow in satellite TV is very very strong. And I'm waiting new Primesat dish just from him! Hoping in coming weeks. As I will receive it I will make the installation and will post all results here.

[unimesh7Fowner]

Ok I agree .
just an academic exercise have you tried checking the warp of the 3m dish . you can do this but placing a strong thin nylon string( a fishing line is ideal) across the opening diameter . repeat on several points at least 4 times . the strings should cross at one point in the centre on a flat plan . if not than the dish is warped .

I know your mind is set on your new dish but it will be nice to know whether this was the case or eliminate this was not the case .

[Matrix2010]

So, finally I got my 2.3m Primesat dish. It's an aluminium, 1-piece dish. Really impressive! More impressive after the installation. It seems working very well in C and Ku bands, and installation is more simple than a fiberglass dish of the same diameter (it's lighter due to aluminium building). After one week of testing I'm very happy using this dish.

[RimaNTSS]

Congratulations, good size. Could you share some picks of your installation?