Enigma 2 FTA replacement for a Freesat PVR

[ashhinton]

Hello

We are looking to replace our four year old Freesat HD recording box.
It's a Humax Foxsat - been brilliant with a few issues, but is now needing replacement.

I'm deciding whether to just get another Freesat box, perhaps with "freetime" catchup, or jump into an open source Linux-based Enigma 2 platform.

One thing I've done with the Foxsat is install an open source custom firmware (Raydon) which allows streaming of recordings to other devices (amazon Fire TV in bedroom with kodi/xbmc side loaded) - I'm not certain a new Freesat branded box would allow such things.

Our requirements are:
HD & SD FTA UK Satellite: BBC, ITV, CH4 & CH5 (CH5 of course SD only via FTA) & their variants such as E4, +1's, etc.

Streaming of HD & SD recordings (via smb or upnp) to a.n.other devices on the house network. Must have Ethernet, must also remove HDCP from FTA HD recordings (the FoxSat has a plugin, via the custom firmware, which does this)

Record multiple channels at once: if it has two tuners, then we should be able to record two feeds from different transponders at the same time. If it has three or four tuners, then preferably record at least 3x channels at once.

Series link. I understand this is a software function: the broadcasters include the info as part of the data (CRID IDs?) and I hope the likes of openATV, Vix etc can manage series linking.

Reliable: one reason for falling out of love with the FoxSat is it randomly drops series links. Eg: it forgot this week's For the love of Cars but has (so far) remembered it next week. Location location location: It hates Kirsty & Phill, or perhaps it just dislikes property shows.

Preferably a web interface for epg, setting up recordings, series links, managing recordings.

Ease of use: Good 7 day EPG, managing recordings, playback etc should be easy & fiddle-free. I don't mind dipping into the command line or Linux file system to install things or retuning transponders.

Catch up is not important, but would be a nice to have. That said, the Amazon Fire TV does it very well as does other kit in the house.

I've been looking at the Gigablue HD Plus and also the VU+ boxes, the Gigablue has some extra tuner slots where you can add another 2x DVB-S/2 and 2x DVB-T/2 - but unless it can record at least 3x HD channels at once they would be a bit wasted.

I have a quad LNB & had the sense to install all 4x cables into our living room when we last decorated.

One thing I'm finding it hard to find out is whether the multiple tuner Enigma 2 boxes will record two (or three, or four - if it has the tuners) channels at once. I find lots of references to record one & watch another - but it's the multi recording which matters: we rarely watch live TV, everything is timeshifted.

Sorry if this is a long first post with lots of questions, I guess it boils down to is can we replace the Freesat box with something that allows streaming of its recordings (inc HD), reliable series link, 7 day epg, multi tuner recording & other nice things. Once I've chosen a box then it's a case of deciding on software Vix, openATV...

Thanks in advance for any help, pointers, personal experience & advice.

Best regards,

Ashley

[den123]

The technomate nano 3 as 3 tuners so can record all 3

[echelon]

its important to note that recording (or watching) different channels is not just dependent on the number of tuners available, but it can be

for clarity, in simple terms its one tuner per transponder , so to record 3 separate channels you would assume you need 3 tuners, each with their own sat feed from the quad or octo lnb , in which case its the duo2 with a twin tuner and single tuner inside it

in practice, if the channels are on the same transponder, then it can record several times if needs be , as no extra tuning is required

so if you take BBC1HD , BBC2HD and BBC3HD they are all on the same transponder - 28.2°E Astra 2E 10847.00 V 50 U.K. DVB-S2 8PSK 23000 2/3 , so only one tuner is required in order to record all 3 channels at the same time, so a solo or zero could do this trick , whereas a solo2 or duo2 could also watch or record itv1HD as well on its second tuner from 28.2°E Astra 2F 11097.00 V 66 U.K. DVB-S2 8PSK 23000 2/3 ASTRA, 44.5 Mbps

in practice the required channels tend to be on different transponders, which is why we advocate one tuner per transponder, which then means watching one channel and recording another , or recording 2 channels and watching a recording, like on a sly HD plus box for example

so dont assume that 2 tuners = 2 recordings only , it will depend on the transponders being used

as for epg recording, that is down to software plugins where you can get a 7 day epg download to usb stick (like crossepg) , plus the ability of any other plugin for series linking (or name linking) , the sly epg and sly plus are excellent in this regard and I havent found anything to be as good and as simple to operate due to the fact their software updates and epg updates and series linking software is so good, I assume a freesat plus box has something similar , as does my freeview sony hxd870 dvd/hdd recorder

an internal hdd is a must on these boxes in order to emulate a sly plus type box (possibly a freesat plus box too but I have no idea about them) so a duo2 or solo2 with a large internal sata hdd fitted would be an ideal box to use for this project , with a suitable image and plugins installed and configured correctly

streaming of recordings to other devices would be about those devices accessing the content from the hdd, so is more about their abilities and not about the VU as such, but there are vu apps to do this for android devices and the programmes can be ftp,d and watched on a laptop etc, so I assume other devices can do this (a central NAS with ethernet can also be used for recordings, as a central hub to be accessed by various devices, it can also be used as a source for mp4 , divx and mkv video files too, plus mp3 audio files as well)

all these boxes have an ethernet connection which is mainly a 100 speed connection ( some like a duo2 may have the higher 1000 lan connection ? ) and few if any have an internal wifi connection, but usually they accept usb dongles for freeview and wifi if required

catchup tv would be down to using xbmc or kodi or suitable plugins (like we had with icefilms and 1channel etc), so is down to plugins once more. I tend to download the tv programmes as mp4 and divx and mkv and ftp to the box so I can watch them direct from the hdd on my duo1, especially any that were "missed" for some reason , playback of these filetypes works with the inbuilt mediaplayer software in the images and is so simple to do its a habit I am into, also includes usa series not out in the uk yet, like deadliest catch season 11 and supernatural season 10 for example

I would assume the gigablue or technomates would do something similar, but are limited in which image they can use I believe, so do have useful images but maybe not as many available as a vu , so the plugin apps may differ too

so if buying a non-vu you may be limited to openatv , openpli and vix afaik (possibly one or two others) - plus the VU boxes seem to have a larger userbase with the knowledge required for when you have questions that need answering, but I am sure there are loyal non-vu users out there that can help, whereas on here we tend to focus on the VU products sold by goldwafers

[ashhinton]

Absolutely fantastic, thanks for that.

The current Freesat box I use has 2x tuners (2x LNB inputs) and will record 2x channels at once. When its recording 2x then you can watch a 3rd show live, providing its on one of the transponders being recorded, but it won't record/schedule the 3rd even if already on the same transponder as one of the other two recordings.

One annoying thing is that if its due to swap i.e.: ending one recording on one transponder and starting another on a different transponder (meanwhile the other tuner is also recording something) it displays a very obtrusive warning message to cancel one recording, then a few seconds later sorts itself out.

Am certainly looking forward to something more configurable, and as you say with good userbase support. In fact a larger userbase and wider software choice would swing us towards a particular product.

I will look at the VU+ receivers: something with with 3x or 4x tuners (at least 2x of which should be sat) would certainly suit, such as the Duo 2 you mentioned.

Then research system images. The nice thing is that the Freesat box hasn't failed totally (touch wood) so we may even have some time to try different ones before settling on something.

Thanks again,

Ashley



its important to note that recording (or watching) different channels is not just dependent on the number of tuners available, but it can be

for clarity, in simple terms its one tuner per transponder , so to record 3 separate channels you would assume you need 3 tuners, each with their own sat feed from the quad or octo lnb , in which case its the duo2 with a twin tuner and single tuner inside it

in practice, if the channels are on the same transponder, then it can record several times if needs be , as no extra tuning is required

so if you take BBC1HD , BBC2HD and BBC3HD they are all on the same transponder - 28.2°E Astra 2E 10847.00 V 50 U.K. DVB-S2 8PSK 23000 2/3 , so only one tuner is required in order to record all 3 channels at the same time, so a solo or zero could do this trick , whereas a solo2 or duo2 could also watch or record itv1HD as well on its second tuner from 28.2°E Astra 2F 11097.00 V 66 U.K. DVB-S2 8PSK 23000 2/3 ASTRA, 44.5 Mbps

in practice the required channels tend to be on different transponders, which is why we advocate one tuner per transponder, which then means watching one channel and recording another , or recording 2 channels and watching a recording, like on a sly HD plus box for example

so dont assume that 2 tuners = 2 recordings only , it will depend on the transponders being used

as for epg recording, that is down to software plugins where you can get a 7 day epg download to usb stick (like crossepg) , plus the ability of any other plugin for series linking (or name linking) , the sly epg and sly plus are excellent in this regard and I havent found anything to be as good and as simple to operate due to the fact their software updates and epg updates and series linking software is so good, I assume a freesat plus box has something similar , as does my freeview sony hxd870 dvd/hdd recorder

an internal hdd is a must on these boxes in order to emulate a sly plus type box (possibly a freesat plus box too but I have no idea about them) so a duo2 or solo2 with a large internal sata hdd fitted would be an ideal box to use for this project , with a suitable image and plugins installed and configured correctly

streaming of recordings to other devices would be about those devices accessing the content from the hdd, so is more about their abilities and not about the VU as such, but there are vu apps to do this for android devices and the programmes can be ftp,d and watched on a laptop etc, so I assume other devices can do this (a central NAS with ethernet can also be used for recordings, as a central hub to be accessed by various devices, it can also be used as a source for mp4 , divx and mkv video files too, plus mp3 audio files as well)

all these boxes have an ethernet connection which is mainly a 100 speed connection ( some like a duo2 may have the higher 1000 lan connection ? ) and few if any have an internal wifi connection, but usually they accept usb dongles for freeview and wifi if required

catchup tv would be down to using xbmc or kodi or suitable plugins (like we had with icefilms and 1channel etc), so is down to plugins once more. I tend to download the tv programmes as mp4 and divx and mkv and ftp to the box so I can watch them direct from the hdd on my duo1, especially any that were "missed" for some reason , playback of these filetypes works with the inbuilt mediaplayer software in the images and is so simple to do its a habit I am into, also includes usa series not out in the uk yet, like deadliest catch season 11 and supernatural season 10 for example

I would assume the gigablue or technomates would do something similar, but are limited in which image they can use I believe, so do have useful images but maybe not as many available as a vu , so the plugin apps may differ too

so if buying a non-vu you may be limited to openatv , openpli and vix afaik (possibly one or two others) - plus the VU boxes seem to have a larger userbase with the knowledge required for when you have questions that need answering, but I am sure there are loyal non-vu users out there that can help, whereas on here we tend to focus on the VU products sold by goldwafers

[Aldo]

Please explain more fully to him Den, as others do for you.

That should make interesting reading, if he ever decides to reply to your request. :D

[ashhinton]

VU Duo 2 is old now, better stb's around.

Recommendations?

The more I look into this the more I'm attracted to the VU+ Duo (with at least 2x Sat and 1x terrestrial tuner) running OpenVIX software.

I read somewhere else that the bit more expensive Duo machines have more horsepower which is useful if you're serving recordings - which we will be, watching recordings using a streaming box (of some kind - currently an Amazon Fire TV with Kodi side-loaded) in the bedroom is a very nice feature.

Thanks,

Ashley

[echelon]

Recommendations?

The more I look into this the more I'm attracted to the VU+ Duo (with at least 2x Sat and 1x terrestrial tuner) running OpenVIX software.



I think you mean DUO 2 , not DUO

[ashhinton]

Indeed the Duo 2, not the Duo. To be honest there seems to be a fair few Enigma 2 PVR's on the market, even if you factor in more than 2 tuners and ones that have plug-in tuner modules. XTrend 8500 for example has a huge flashy-looking front panel display but since our box lives in a cupboard is a complete waste of time. A cynic might say that the model numbers are deliberately confusing but then I work in IT and can't talk as computer kit model numbers are hardly called Model A, B & C :-)

[digicon]

A TM Nano 3T has 2 v DVB-S2 tuners and a 3rd DVB-C/T/T2 tuner for Freeview HD and is priced at around £189, The Vu Duo2 on the other hand is priced around £279 and then you have to add the DVB-C/T/T2 tuner at round £59 and then a hard drive.

The TM comes in at a more reasonable price but does lack image support but if your happy with something like OpenVix then you should have no problems.

The Duo2 on the other hand has a multitude of support behind it

[echelon]

so if I am reading this correctly the tm nano 3t does not allow for 3 sat tuners, as the third one is for cable/freeview/freeview HD only

it also has support for a 2.5 inch internal sata hdd , so like a solo 2 but with the extra freeview/cable tuner , and can take openatv and vix images (maybe others too?)

the duo 2 can have an extra tuner fitted internally which could be satellite or could be cable/freeview, depending on which one is bought, plus you can again add an internal sata hdd as well (either 2.5 or 3.5 inch). it also can record up to 16 channels simulataneously, plus has built in internal wifi and a gigabit lan port

I think that unless the gigabit blue does the same the choice seems quite narrow to me , plus I am not sure why den123 proposed a tm nano t3 when one of the 3 tuners does not seem to be a satellite tuner

[digicon]

I think the OP went from wanting 3 x DVB-S2 tuners to 2 and maybe a Freeview tuner who knows, has why i mentioned the Nano 3T as a possible but for more flexibility then you would be hard to beat something like the Duo2.

Although the new Xtrends 8500 and 10000 have 4 x P&P tuners which do defeat the Duo2 for mix and match possibility and they also run the same Broadcom Chipset

[ashhinton]

It was Echelon's reply that made me realise I perhaps didn't need so many tuners, as on FTA via Astra for the UK the main PSB services such as BBC, ITV, etc share transponders - the likelihood if there was a clash where three channels were all on different transponders then a third terrestrial tuner could pick up the slack, provided of course the channel was available from the transmitter.

One idea we did have a while back was to point another dish at Hellas Sat for Greek TV. My wife and I are learning Greek (we both love visiting Greece, let's hope they'll still have an economy of sorts) the idea at the time was just to plug in a cheapie FTA box with a single feed.

In theory with a multi-tuner box such as the Duo2 we could have:
3x sat UK FTA (Astra 28.2E) - quad lnb on existing freesat/ex-sky dish.
1x sat Greek (Hellas - I think at the time I confirmed we could see it)
1x terrestrial

If I was going to buy an extra sat tuner module anyway I would buy a twin, even if the 4th tuner was there for later use.

We will just have to look at costs and whether anything more than 2x sat & 1x terrestrial would get used. We can always add another 2x sat module later in the Duo2.

Again thanks everyone for taking the time to help & answer my queries.
I'm convinced the likes of OpenVix (still researching others) is the way rather than closed-source walled garden platforms. If I record something then I should be free to watch it on anything else in the house (stream the recording), free to make a backup, free to organise channels the way I want.

It seems series linking, I forget what OpenVix etc calls it, is there as is being able to play/stream recordings elsewhere in the house. Web-based control seems to be there too. Yes I've read the series links need to be monitored a bit, but then so do the ones on freesat. Despite my wife putting in Kirstie & Phil (love it or list it!) again & it showing in the planner with no clashes our freesat box ignored it.. again.

She's getting frustrated as am I, it's time a multi-tuner open source satellite box made an appearance in the Hinton household.

Thanks again everyone,

Ashley

[echelon]

on a side note, my sony hxd 870 dvd/hdd recorder (with self fitted 1 tB hdd inside it) is used for series linking from freeview , including that kirsty and phil programme and the "for the love of Cars" programme too, these recorders are not available as new any more (pioneer stopped production) but can still be bought second hand and were made by pioneer for sony.

model numbers include 770/870/970/1070 and 790/890/995 etc (I would buy a former x70 series and change the hdd)

They can be scarted from any box and record onto the hdd and if necessary dub to a dvdr for long term keeping (where the transmission or recording originate on a sly box or vm box or a satellite box). I also sometimes dub recordings to dvd-rw disks and watch them on other dvd players too

so flexibility is something else I look for in technology and I let freeview do the work where I can and on the sony the 7 day epg , series linking and ability to set the timer from the epg is extremely useful

not sure exactly how many tuners can be put into a duo 2 or gigablue quad but I would think that its definitely two twin sat tuners and maybe a freeview tuner either by card slot or usb dongle

lastly, its worth checking what the maximum size of hdd is allowed in those sat boxes (its 1 tB in the sony hxd dvd recorder btw) as HD recordings take up a lot more space, so maybe between 1 tB and 2 tB should be the target market

[digicon]

As far as i am aware the Duo2 can either take 2 x Dual DVB-S2 tuners making it a Quad tuner or a Dual and a single DVB-C/T/T2 making it a twin sat and single Freeview/Cable and also on the horizon is the Dual DVB-C/T/T2 module which would make it either a twin sat and twin freeview/cable or 4 x sat or 4 x freeview cable.

Personally they fell short at the hurdle as my requirements needed a 3 x DVB-S2 and 1 x DVB-C/T/T2 which led me to the Gigablue Quad +, Although the Xtrend machines can be configured even better than any other model.

Even so you still cannot beat Vu+ for Image support (Blackhole)

[ashhinton]

As far as i am aware the Duo2 can either take 2 x Dual DVB-S2 tuners making it a Quad tuner or a Dual and a single DVB-C/T/T2 making it a twin sat and single Freeview/Cable and also on the horizon is the Dual DVB-C/T/T2 module which would make it either a twin sat and twin freeview/cable or 4 x sat or 4 x freeview cable.

Personally they fell short at the hurdle as my requirements needed a 3 x DVB-S2 and 1 x DVB-C/T/T2 which led me to the Gigablue Quad +, Although the Xtrend machines can be configured even better than any other model.

Even so you still cannot beat Vu+ for Image support (Blackhole)

I hadn't realised the Duo2 didn't already have 2x onboard DVB-S2 but sure enough looking closer it relies purely on the tuner slots, whereas the Gigablue Quad + has 2x onboard DVB-S2 and then 2x tuner slots which would more than satisfy with the extra module slots.

As it's been said a pure pursuit of tuners can be a bit misguided as channels share transponders & multiplexes but considering the Greek (or other sat possibilities as well) I'm trying to think long term.

Again thanks all for your help.

Ashley

[ashhinton]

After some serious thinking, and re-reading all the helpful advice here, I've decided after all that a VU+ Duo2 would be the best option.
At the moment we can record 2x channels at once, while playing back a recording from the hard disk. The freesat box doesn't allow any more than that, even if a third simultaneous recording happened to be on the same transponder as one of the other two recordings.

We've managed to get around clashes by simply recording a repeat on another day.

A Duo2 with 2x twin DVB-S2 tuners would give us 4x DVB-S2 tuners - even if I used one for A.N.Other satellite (i.e.: Hellas Sat for Greek) we would still have 3x tuners left for day-to-day recording + even more flexibility as it can record more if simultaneous recordings happen to share the same transponder.

Hopefully I'm correct so far?

Drop the need for DVB-T/T2 as 3x DVB-S2 tuners would be more than enough for our UK FTA requirements. I understand you can, if you want, plug in some DVB-T/T2 USB tuner dongles anyway. I've even got one somewhere, should it be compatible - in all honesty though, after thinking it through again, I doubt we would ever need to.

I initially dismissed Black Hole, I think because during my early googling I couldn't find out much info. Now I realise it could be the best choice.
At least I've sorted out what hardware to buy: It'll be a VU+ Duo2 with 2x twin DVB-S2 tuner cards (4x sat tuners in total)

Thanks again,

Ashley

[echelon]

also, according to this thread of mine here https://www.satpimps.co.uk/showthread.php?171428-BH-2-1-6-1-problems&p=932528 , xbmc gotham (or in the future - KODI) is available on the duo2 in BH , possibly on other boxes or images ? (I am sure I read that vix or somebody was adding it to their images for these newer boxes like the duo2 , maybe the technomates etc)

so dont discount the possibility of watching stuff by streaming it from the net, including catchup tv , or streaming live tv

I did check my new BH last night and in addons manager there was a series link and series manager set of plugins listed, so I am sure these exist on other images too (like you said earlier about openvix , possibly on openATV or openPLI as well ?)

[Nikkas]

XBMC is now available on all mainstream images (BH, ATV, VTi & yes ViX did eventually catch up as well :D ) for Vu+ Duo2 & Solo2. Not sure about other makes of STB's but I am sure there may be others out there.

Confirmed 'series plugins' are there for download on OpenATV 5 and will therefore, more than likely be there for other Open images as well.

I may be biased and know I shouldn't but I can't stop myself from stating that the Vu+ Duo2 is worth every penny extra..... :D

[ashhinton]

Have taken the plunge and ordered a VU+ Duo2 with 2x twin DVB-S2 tuner modules (4x tuners)
Can't wait for it to arrive, its going to be a brave new world after so many years of walled-garden systems (and yes, I even count Freesat as that)
In the past I've had Sky, Sky+ (my wife jokes she married me for Sky+), Sky HD, Virgin, Virgin TiVo, Freesat, and now finally something truly open source.

Again thanks to all who have helped me in this thread.

Cheers,

Ashley

[ashhinton]

Just thought I'd post an update!
Have had the Duo2 now for a month or so. 3x feeds from the Quad LNB (28.2E) and the 4th output from same LNB feeding a 2nd bedroom. I've put the old freesat box in there which will keep my mum very happy when she visits as its the same box they have at home (only 1x feed, but better than nothing!) - yes it might be failing, but for now it seems stable.

Back to the Duo2:
It has many, many, good points:
- Auto Timer is one of them - far more flexible, and able to look in a "window" rather than rigidly stick to times. This has been very useful recently when programmes were overrunning due to recent news or sports events.
= Network access - backup the settings, even the entire OS image, fantastic stuff!
= User Bouquets - a lot more flexible than plain old favourites.
= Simultaneous recordings, sensibly 1x tuner per transponder. - I think the other evening, briefly, was the only time it had to use all three tuners - exiting a recording to Sky News (what we tend to "park" on) resulted in a "sorry, i'm using all three tuners!" message. And it has never, yet, had to report it can't record something due to a clash - something the Freesat box was always doing.

Some niggles:
- The remote, by all accounts, can behave like its haunted. I think its a common complaint for the Duo2. Oddly enough this was much worse with my original choice of Black Hole but better using OpenVIX, not sure why, but have settled in with Vix now. One day I might get around to trying other images again, but for now the box is set-up and stable, if a little random sometimes in deciding which button on the remote is being pressed.
- Autotimer defaults don't seem to stay as default. It might be a Vix thing but in the end I just removed the possible alternates which could mess up a recording (non FTA like Channel5 HD) and ensured the remaining channels didn't have alternates set anyway. Then the "use alternates' can remain default, on, and not bother any of the timers. Having set-up my own bouquet, putting all the HD FTA at the top, followed by our next-most-used channels etc, also made sense here.

Advice for anyone considering an Enigma2 box (not just a Duo2..)
- Initial set-up can be a little more challenging than "plug & play" platforms (i.e.: sky, freesat, freeview branded kit) but this is to be expected. Read the Instructions (find a suitable online guide for whichever image you're using - often in forums). Take it slowly. Set up things in the correct order and don't rush. Choose 1x EPG provider, and make sure its stored somewhere not in Flash (the latter I did, onto a HDD, but the former I had too many ticked!) - make sure you've got enough time to set things up properly, decide beforehand the order and print-off or have handy on a laptop/tablet any info you need.
- With flexibility (and freedom) you have to do some work yourself, but do take advantage of things like settings backups etc. That way if you're trying something, or doing a software update, and it goes horribly wrong you've got a way to recover things. Obviously if you accidentally format your hard disk and lose your recordings you're in big trouble with your family,.. and no, I didn't actually do that!

The future? well I've been looking at other satellites including Greek (not much being broadcast, it seems)
I Have come to the conclusion, apart from interesting news feeds, its probably not worth another dish/motor/multi LNB arm unless I want to learn German for 19.2E - in the end I might just get a 8x output LNB (the next up from 4x output) and feed 4x 28.2E into the Duo, keeping the 1x 28.2E into the guest bedroom. Its time more than anything.. if I had enough of it I'd try some feed hunting, Maybe in the future!

Cheers,

Ashley

[echelon]

I would recommend you buy a 16 gig or 32 gig small size usb stick, like these I recommended in here (if you havent done so already)

https://www.satpimps.co.uk/showthread.php?171803-Open-TV-EPG-storage-issue-on-USB-stick

these go in the back usb slot, formatted to ext4 using the box menus and inserting it when prompted

if you use openBH in the flash, you can install openvix , openVTI , openPLI , openATV and BH 2161 in multiboot, storing the images to the usb stick and using multiboot to select the chosen image of choice to boot from (as well as being able to boot from openBH in the flash)

then you can easily compare images

as for this usb stick, use it to store the picon folder, crossepg data and any other epg data too, for instant access (so not using the hdd)

it can also be used for backups (but dont leave the image backup on it as it will try to reprogram the box on booting up)

so multiple uses and instant access and leave the hdd to so its own jobs

regards