CubeRevo HD PSU repair

[jphilweybr]

My Cube Revo HD has gone dead - no light comes on the screne when I switch on. Does anyone know where I might get a repair done please?

[Friendly-Face]

Anywhere they repaid TV and Radios should do :-)
Have a look at your local place maybe there is some one, ask at local electronic stores they can be helpfull

[skomedal]

If a DIY person?
Open the box and look for bulging capacitors ( domed heads ) if found replace with equivelent or better quality of same rating ( remember correct polarity +/- orientation ).

Have done this on numerous satellite decoder PSUs

[jphilweybr]

Thanks Friendly-Face and skomedal.

I had in fact tried the most likely local TV/Audio dealer *** repair shop, who've done several jobs for us over the years. They didn't want to know - quite reasonable since they didn't know the make. In fact I've since discovered that you can't get a wiring diagram for this. (I thought I found it on an AB Ipbox site in the Czech Republic, but can't find it today.) Still, I can try somewhere else, or maybe find someone who claims to repair PCBs.

I have no competence in electronics, but some in electrics. I've had the PCB attached to the incoming supply out of the box, and everything looks fine and clean, all the little cylinders, and one big one, have smooth heads with crosses visible. No sign of anything having burnt out. There are three brown bits standing on two legs, which I thought might be fuses, and I've got continuity across the legs. There are some blue ones with no continuity across the legs. As all the blue ones are the same, and all the brown ones are the same, I have to assume that they should be like that! The PCB has two sets of wires connected to the main board - one of 15 wires, 14 white and one black (all labelled on the PCB), and one SATA to the HDD. I have ascertained that there is no voltage in the SATA cable. I have also checked that the on-off switch at the back works - there is a female fittings which attaches to two pins on the PCB and I have continuity in that female fitting when the switch is on, but not when it is off.

Oh - and the mains plug works with another appliance - just in case you were asking!

Thanks guys, and if anyone has any further thoughts, they would be gratefully received.

[mrdude]

If you don't know much about electronics, don't go messing about with the inside of something that uses electricity, get someone who knows, or put it in the bin and buy a new one.

Worst case scenario with you messing about - you kill yourself, or burn your house down.

Electricity is dangerous and even the best electricians are not electronics engineers.......just saying.

[seagate1]

If you don't know much about electronics, don't go messing about with the inside of something that uses electricity, get someone who knows, or put it in the bin and buy a new one.

Worst case scenario with you messing about - you kill yourself, or burn your house down.

Electricity is dangerous and even the best electricians are not electronics engineers.......just saying.

i was going to say just about the same, bin it and buy a new one.

[jphilweybr]

Thanks guys, points taken. It's just a replacement is about £5oo, so I was hoping to get a repair done and not to have to bin it.

[stroker]

Hi I don't know the the box you are talking about but I am an electronics engineer.
I have found a pic on the net but cannot post it here for some reason.
Can you try to post a pic of the power supply?
Most interested in the end where the switch connects.

It is a switch mode power supply and there is usually a fuse hidden somewhere but in my experience it is very rare for it to just be the fuse.

[mrdude]

Well if you're sure it's the power supply look at it logically.

All a psu does is output various power to the motherboard, 12v/8v/5v/3.3v etc and has various ground points. With a multimeter do a continuity test to check all the grounds are grounded. Then check each v+ line (the wires coming from the psu), to see if you have any voltage from them.

If you don't get any power from any of them, check the plug fuse/and any fuses on the psu before the transformer. Check the input on the transformer for 240v and the output on the transformer for less than that. If you get voltage on any of the wires coming from the psu to the main motherboard - check what lines are not grounds and then see what each lines output is, if you get a wire that's not a ground or has any voltage - trace that line back to find out what components are broken.

Most of the time it's a capacitor - these often dry out, with no visible damage so you don't know it's broken unless you unsolder it and check it with an ESR meter (cheap on ****). Alternately just google for 'electronic repair', and take it to a shop in your area to get checked out.

[stroker]

Here is a URL to the pic I found. Does it look familiar?
http://www.digital-news.it/UserFiles/Image/madtek/HD-4000L/interno.JPG

You need to be careful working on switch mode PSU's because they work by rectifying the incoming 240V mains which produces around 350V dc across the big capacitor(cylinder as you called it).

[jphilweybr]

Thank you all and sorry for the long silence. Well with one thing and another, Christmas cards, decorations and then a hard disk failure and two computer re-installs. Come to think of it, very little of the other. :redface:
Yes, that picture is of my box. There’s also a disk drive – you can see the SATA power cable and the data cable loose in the middle.
Somewhere along the line, I did get to check continuity between the grounds and the +voltages output. All were working except +5v – the meter might start at around 20v and then step slowly down to settle at 12v or it might start at around 4v and go back to almost nothing. Also, the SATA power cable doesn’t work – perhaps the same +5v failure. So thanks for the tip about tracing the fault, but that’s not my scene.
So’ I’ll have another go at finding someone round here who’ll take on the repair.
Thanks again

[stroker]

Looking at the pic I posted there is a black round device near to the 2 pin mains input connector which I think is a fuse.
Check the markings on this device and post it here.
It is probably marked on the circuit board as FS1 or similar you could check it for continuity.

I don't really follow what you mean. Have you found any voltages eg. 12V or 5V ?
I'm going off line now but will check back later.

[jphilweybr]

Thanks Stroker - didn't really expect to hear from anyone today (explanation written Christmas Day but failed to send until today.).

Sorry I wasn't clear. Yes, +8v, +12v, +30v, +24v were all working, but not +5v.

The little black thing near the switch is labelled F81, snd specs are T3.15AL 250vAC. There is continuity to it from CNB2 - the pin from the switch and on to a brown bit standing on two legs on the PCB. There is continuity across the two legs and on to CB1 - a yellow rectangular box.

Anyway, we are getting power to the far end of the PCB, but not 5v.

Thanks - turkey time here now.

[stroker]

OK so it is a fuse and it is not blown.

It's unusual to only lose one voltage on a switch mode power supply but then I thought it was strange when I saw 2 yellow transformers in the picture.
It looks like there are 2 switch mode supplies on the circuit board, the one for low current supplies and the other for the high current 5V supply.
So it could be the one switching device has gone or the over-voltage protection has triggered or has a problem.
I think the 5V supply is on the right side of the board in the picture.

Can you unplug the the cable to the main board and check for a short(continuity) between 5V and 0V on the power supply without the mains connected.
Swap the meter leads and check again. If there is a short either the protection device is short circuit or possibly a capacitor on the output.

The switching device is mounted on the heatsink above the right side yellow transformer.

Can you also look for a part number on the board - looks like top left in the picture we may be able to find a replacement somewhere.

[stroker]

Digging a bit deeper it looks like the 5V supply only comes on when you come out of standby so try pressing the on button on the front panel.
Got this idea from another form http://####rum.no/forum/satellitt/122709-ipbox-9000hd-power-feil.html
Replace #### with avfo
You may need to translate but there are some good pics on there.
Model of supply appears to be DG-210VFD but cannot find one so far.

[jphilweybr]

Very useful resource you tracked down. The pictures could be of my board, except model is just DG-210VFD without a revision number. Also their MT-210VFDS transformer is labelled ST-08-11 whereas mine is ST-08-06 and, given the other transformer is labelledST-08-17, I assume those aren't just different manufacturing dates.

I'm getting about 90ohms between the +5v wire and the adjacent GND, same with the leads swapped round. (I don't have anything labelled 0v.)

If the switching unit is on the heatsink between the MT-210VFDM transformer and the back, it is labelled IC91 and has five terminals. On the pic of the undersided of the board, they are shown near the top to the right of centre. If I number those:
1Left
2Right
3Left
4Right
5Left

I am getting continuity between 2 and 3, 2 and 5, 3 and 5.

As regards the business of bringing the set out of stanby, I think I came across that a while back in another (English language!) discussion. But when I was fiddling with mine, I tried the button on the front panel as well with no joy. Also, IIRC when the set is in standby mode, the front panel screen is lit but mine is dead.

Thanks again.

[stroker]

OK thanks for the info.
The numbers on the transformers may well be date codes but no need to worry about them I think.

90ohms on 5V is probably OK and yes GND and 0V are usually the same - sorry if I confused you.
I cannot see the over-voltage protection circuit I was expecting so we can forget that for now.
We won't worry about IC91 just yet.

I am trying to work out how the standby thing works but it is not easy.
I want you to check the voltage on 2 points on the output connector I don't think you have mentioned these before.
They are marked as 5VS and P/S again measure between ground and each point.
5VS is a low current 5V standby supply and P/S comes from the front panel and controlled by the standby switch.
So 5VS should read about 5V if this is the case measure P/S and see if that changes when you press the switch.

Let me know what readings you get. I suspect the 5VS supply may be faulty but we need to check to make sure.

[jphilweybr]

6610966109Thanks again for this stroker.
Between GND and 5VS I’m getting 5.1v.
First time round I didn’t check 3V3. Now I have, and get nothing.
I haven’t been able to check the voltage at P/S yet. The fact is, I’ve done all my tests so far by unhooking the power output cables from the main board and then just using thin telephone wires connected at one end to a connector block strip and then pushing them in to the female parts of the cable strip. Of course, to test the P/S, the cables have to be connected to the main board, as the only connection to the front panel goes from there. So I thought I could just turn the PCB upside down and check from there. However, no success so far. It seems I can check for resistance between the little blobs of solder but not for voltage – I’ve tried with some I know exist. However, this is all new to me so I am being ultra cautious. And now, the light isn’t good enough, so will try again in the morning.
I’ve now taken the front panel off, and taken the PCB out. It has quite a different arrangement from the one you found on the other resource (Pics 7-9). Mine is also DGStation but
CubeRevo
500 Front
2008,04,21 VER A

I hope the pic will upload.

A common feature between mine and the other resource is the round button on their pic 9, to the left of where it says FILE and to the left again of the pictogram of a TV. This shows black flakes. So does mine, though less.

[jphilweybr]

6610966109Thanks again for this stroker.
Between GND and 5VS I’m getting 5.1v.
First time round I didn’t check 3V3. Now I have, and get nothing.
I haven’t been able to check the voltage at P/S yet. The fact is, I’ve done all my tests so far by unhooking the power output cables from the main board and then just using thin telephone wires connected at one end to a connector block strip and then pushing them in to the female parts of the cable strip. Of course, to test the P/S, the cables have to be connected to the main board, as the only connection to the front panel goes from there. So I thought I could just turn the PCB upside down and check from there. However, no success so far. It seems I can check for resistance between the little blobs of solder but not for voltage – I’ve tried with some I know exist. However, this is all new to me so I am being ultra cautious. And now, the light isn’t good enough, so will try again in the morning.
I’ve now taken the front panel off, and taken the PCB out. It has quite a different arrangement from the one you found on the other resource (Pics 7-9). Mine is also DGStation but
CubeRevo
500 Front
2008,04,21 VER A

I hope the pic will upload.

A common feature between mine and the other resource is the round button on their pic 9, to the left of where it says FILE and to the left again of the pictogram of a TV. This shows black flakes. So does mine, though less.

[stroker]

OK I see your front panel is a little different we may need to look at that later. Black mark on display no need to worry about that just yet.

Sorry you are nervous about doing these checks but the voltages at the output end of the board are quite low and they are isolated from the mains.
You only really need to worry about the mains end of the board but you obviously need to be careful.

You can check P/S another way.
Above the output connector in line with the P/S pin there is a wire link on the board (J9 I think but not sure)
There is another wire link J7 in line with the +5VS pin.
So put board back in use the chassis/metalwork as GND and check voltage on the wire links.
5VS shoud be 5.1V as you already have found then check P/S on the other link, also check when button pressed.

If P/S is always 0V remove power and check for a short/continuity from P/S to GND leave meter on for a few seconds as there is a capacitor connected which may show as a short until it charges up. If the capacitor (C33 I think) is shorted it could be our problem. If shorted check again after unplugging cables to the front panel. If there is a still a short do not do the next step.

Disconnect mains and unplug the cables from the front panel.
Reconnect power and use a piece of wire/tweezers/long nosed pliers to short the 2 wire links mentioned above(J7 and J9?) together.
Beware when you do this the unit may power on and fan start spinning etc. - just hoping?
I am not sure if you need to hold the short in place or just momentarily.
If it does power on the problem would appear to be on the front panel board.

If it does not power up we need to check PC41 which is a small square black 4-pin device between the transformers.
We may be able to force the output of PC41 to prove the switching stage works.
I need to know results from above tests first.

Also does you meter have a diode check setting?
Can you solder and have a soldering iron?
How far away from me are you - I am in Newport South Wales.

[jphilweybr]

Thanks stroker once again.
Yes, those two wires are J7 and J9.
I’ve done the following several times just to make sure I had a consistent story. I unplug the output cables from the main board, and check the reference voltage on V5S and get 5.1 as before. I then check from the chassis to J7 and get 5.1 again. I then plug the cables back to the main board, thereby linking the PSU and front panel boards. No voltage between the chassis and J7. I unplug the cables from the main board, and now I still have no voltage. After a while, though I do – perhaps after I measure across one of the GND terminals rather than the chassis.
After three or four goes, I disconnect the front panel board but connect the PSU to the main board. Now I do get the usual 5.1v between the chassis and J7.
Resistance between P/S and GND is about 0.8MegaOhm.
Resistance across C33 is about 1.8 kOhms. (I measured across the two blobs on the underside.)
Shorting J7 and J9 had no effect and I did make sure I had voltage in J7, and did pause several seconds..
Yes, I do have a mutimeter with a diode checker. And yes I do have a soldering iron but have only done crude jobs, such as loudspeaker terminals where there is no chance of the flux spreading to anything important! And I do not have any desoldering kit.
I live in ******, but I’m from Pembrokeshire so go through Newport several times a year – next time probably late January. But really stroker, I’ve put you to far too much trouble already.

[jphilweybr]

In case you were wondering, I didn't type "I live in ******", but gave the name of a county west of London. Surprised it fell foul of the ****ography police or whoever!

[jphilweybr]

OK, and neither did I type ****ography!

[Aldo]

OK, and neither did I type ****ography!

Please read the forum rules, especially this one which refers to the board auto censor:

4) no *** out partial names of other sat retailers or @uction sites etc , ie:- do not try to cir***vent the board censor , including posting emails,
those names are starred out due to the fact we have a board sponsor here.
these censored words and emails are also censored in any pm,s so that is why they dont appear there either
( its a board auto-censor )

[stroker]

I'm not worried about the time it's taking I get a buzz from fixing things and like a challenge.
Your location in you message was blanked out presumably to protect your privacy.
I only asked to make sure we did not live around the corner from each other.

When you get a chance I want you to check some diodes I am hoping you can do this without having to unsolder them.
Using the diode check on the meter you should get a reading usually 0.6 and infinity with the leads swapped.

Near the board part number there are 2 diodes, a black one with a silver stripe at one end and a glass one with a stripe D91 I think it is.
So use the diode check then swap leads and make a note of the readings then do the same for the next diode.

The next check is inside PC41 which is in between the transformers.
If you look on the bottom side of the board one of the pins is marked with a dot, this is pin1.
Check for a diode between pin1 and the next pin(above) which is pin2 again reverse leads and repeat the check.
You can repeat the same check on PC91 so we can compare the results.

PC41 is my main suspect it a photo-coupler or opto-isolator which consists of an LED and a photo-transistor.
It is used to transfer signals between 2 circuits while maintaining electrical isolation.
PC41 is part of the on/off control circuit.

That's enough diode checking for now.
Now try soldering a wire link between pin3 and pin4 of PC41 these are the pins next to where it says PC41 on the board.
Don't use too much solder as the link will need to be removed later.

I am hoping the link will turn on the main part of the power supply bypassing PC41 and the previous circuitry.
Put everything back together and power on.
If it powers up the standby switch will not work but this will prove the power supply itself works and the problem is PC41 or something earlier in the circuit.
If it does not power up properly it suggests the problem is on the hot(mains) side of PC41 probably the switching device on heatsink.

It may be useful if you can check the details on PC41 and the switching device IC91 on the heatsink.
PC41 can probably be replaced by any bog-standard opto-isolator.

[jphilweybr]

Thanks Also. I did read the rules when I joined and now re-read them.

I didn't actually type any asterisks to start with, but I did make a light-hearted to what I called the, and here I inserted a word meaning indecent videos etc, "police". It was the auto-sensor (I assume) that substituted asterisks for the first four letters of that word.

Anyway, thanks again - great site you help to run.

[jphilweybr]

And apologies, I typed Also instead of Aldo and didn't check. Typing errors are not unknown frome, and I should have checked. Sorry.

[jphilweybr]

Thanks stroker. Probably you and I have one thing in common - don't give up easily - always want to try something else.

Will do the diode checks tomorrow.

[stroker]

I think you are right there.
I really want to breath new life into this box.
For me replacing old with new is taking the easy way out.

[jphilweybr]

OK, brief progress report, stroker.
First diodes D91 and D93 near the back.
These show 1 in one direction, which the multimeter instruction says means infinity and 483 and 502 respectively in the other, which I take to mean about 0.5v.
As regards PC41, all my pins seem to have a black background. So, looking at Picture 6 of the resource you found, I took Pin 1 to be the one at the top, near the letters PC, and Pin 2 to be the one just below it. Here I get infinity in one direction (red probe to Pin 2) and in the other direction unstable readings – they hover in the 1300 to 1500 area. Reading across Pin 3 and 4 gave similar results.
Using the same pin numbering for PC91. The top pair gives 1534 in one direction and hovering in the 1200 to 1500 area in the other. Pins 3 and 4 gave infinity in one direction and again unstable in the 1200 to 1500 area in the other.
I’ll have to break off now, probably for the rest of the day.

[jphilweybr]

Sorrry stroker. Just re-read, more carefully, your previous post, where you said that on PC41 Pins 3 and 4 were next to the letters PC. As it happens, my diode check readings were the same for both pairs.

But to double check, when I look at the underside of the board, with the mains input to my right and the DC outputs to my left, the top pin is Pin 4. And it's that pin I'll connect via soldered wire to the one below it.

[stroker]

From your test both diodes are OK.

The pins on PC41 I want you to link are on the right as you look at it in your previous post.
To put it another way imagine a line running from top to bottom through the middle of both transformers and PC41, on the left is the low voltage "cold side" and on the right is the mains "hot" side. We want to link the 2 pins which are both on the hot side. These pins connect to the photo-transistor inside PC41 and we are simulating the transistor being turned on irrespective of the input signal to PC41. This will hopefully fire up the second switch mode circuit but all depends on how the switching device works - we may need to look up a data sheet for the device for which we will need the device type number.
Of course fitting the link may have no effect but I really think it is worth while doing.

The diode tests I wanted on PC41 were on the cold side pins. Best not to worry about pin numbers in this case. Don't worry about the diode test for now.
I now see PC41 is in a very strange package which I haven't seen for a very long time there is no pin1 dot and no semi-circular cutout at the pin1 end but there is a ridge along the one side. Looking with the ridge on your left pin 1 is at the top with the other pins numbered anticlockwise from pin1.

I hope this not too confusing - good luck!

[jphilweybr]

Well yes I had managed to confuse myself. Because PC41 was written on the hot side and PC91 was on the cold side, I had assumed that all four pins on the hot side were J41 – while being baffled by what was the purpose of the links on the upper side of the board!
Anyway the diode check across the two pins of PC41 on the cold side gives infinity and 1308.
IC91 gives:
STR
G6 351
76 20

PC41 and PC91 difficult to read, and impossible to photograph. Best effort:

PC-1 7X1 not too sure about the 1, could be 3 or just a vertical line
81 7v
?? CB where ?? is some kind of symbol like an inverted U below an upright U.

Shorting the two pins on the hot side of PC41 had no effect, with or without the front panel attached. Small confession here though. I didn't solder a link. I was able to turn the board upside down and power on from there. (It’s quite stable as there’s a sizeable flat plate attached to the heatsinks on the cold side of the transformers, and I’d made a jumper to by-pass the switch at the back – keeping the wall socket at my fingertips.) I then tried linking with thin-nosed pliers with no effect. Perhaps that’s not good enough?

Friends arriving soon and staying for the weekend, so you won’t hear from me for a few days now.

Happy New Year, stroker, and hope you’ll still be ready with your excellent advice in 2017!

[stroker]

OK great info.

I have found a data sheet for g6351 so may be able to make more sense of things.
I probably won't post again til Sunday.

Thanks and happy new year to you too.
Remember Bob the builder - can he fix it? - yes he can!

[stroker]

I hope you had a good night - just had a quiet one here.
Anyway as I said I downloaded a datasheet and a sample circuit diagram.
In our case the standby on/off circuit has been added, any component references will be different but still useful info.
I tried to upload the files here but it did not work - may try again later.

Here's a few things I would like you to do.

First I want to check the resistance of one of the shorts you reported earlier which I think may be due to low value resistors in the circuit.
Measure between the heatsink of IC91 and J1 (between R95 an R96) I would expect to see about 68 or 680ohms depending on the value of R94.
If R94 is blue-grey-black it's 68 ohms if the black stripe is brown it's 680.

I now want to do some voltage measurements on the hot side, it would be helpful to have a spare hand so try to attach your black lead to to IC91 heatsink.
We will be using this point as a common but beware it is not at chassis potential (more like 300V) so should not be touched when powered up.
Now measure voltage on the end of R98 nearest the maims input, expect something up to about 35V dc.

Next measure voltage on the end of R95 nearest the mains input, expect 0V or the same as on R98.
Keep the meter on R95 and press the standby button on front-panel, does it change?
I would expect it to toggle between 0V and the same as on R98 each time you press.

Next measure the voltage on the end of R98 furthest from the mains input and repeat the standby button check.
I would expect 0V changing to about 10V but it may be difficult to measure this.

Finally but only if you have a reasonable voltage on R98 in the first measurement.
Remove mains power and use a piece of solid wire to link R95 and R98 each at the end nearest the mains input.
Just do this on the component site of the board with a couple of blobs of solder - will remove again at some stage.
This should connect power directly to IC91 so when you now power up IC91 will kick in and provide 5V and 3.3V
If it does power up the transistor next to R98 I think it's Q91 is probably faulty - see if you can ready details from it.

If it does not power on IC91 is probably faulty. I found some STRG6351's on line for about £6 inc. postage.

[jphilweybr]

Thanks stroker.

I probably won't be able to get back to you today - other duties.

[jphilweybr]

Well, I’ve been a bit naughty and abandoned another job I should be doing to have a look at this.

First, the resistance between the heatsink and J1 is 680 ohms, and yes R94 is blue/grey/black. I did find it difficult to get a stable reading, but when I did it was 680.

Secondly, the voltage between heatsink and the hot side of R98 is 21.1. Actually, it’s also the voltage to the cold side. This was also the voltage through R96.

Between, the heatsink and R95, the readings danced around a bit but almost settled at around 1.3. Again, the same to the other end.

Holding the meter probes steady, pressing the standby button had no effect anywhere, and nothing powered up.

The resistance of R98 is 9.94 kO, and of R95 4.62 kO.

By the way, I checked these with two different multi-meters in case one was bust.
Thought I’d better stop there to let you cogitate.

It may be no longer of interest, but Q91 reads:
A733
TCJ1D

[stroker]

I'm sorry I only just noticed your post.

R98 is 10K and R95 is 4K7 so your readings are ok.

From your other measurements all looks as expected apart from the pesky standby button having no effect.
Could it be the fault is actually on the front panel?
My only concern is the 21V is it high enough? But I suspect it is.
We need to get this 21V to IC91 so if you can tack a wire between the hot ends of R95 and R98 I am reasonably confident it will burst into life.
As I said you can tack this link on the top side of the board since it is only meant to be temporary.

If it does power up you will only be able to turn it off with the main switch only.

By the way if you want to have a break from this for a few days it's not a problem for me.

[jphilweybr]

Thanks Stroker.
So I linked the hot end of R98 and the hot end of R95 and no sign of life.
With the link in I checked the voltages and now they were:
To each end of R98 11.7v as opposed to 21.1 previously.
To the hot end of R95 11.7 as opposed to about 1.4v previously (so makes sense?)
To the cold end of R95 4.6v as opposed to 1.4v previously.
I suppose the only sign of life I’d notice would be the fan on the main board, and that does require 12v.
No, I don’t need a break, but I may be slow to respond now and then. And don’t you feel you need to respond quickly either.

[stroker]

Well the results were very disappointing but hey that's life!
I had a longer look at the datasheet for IC91 and it's more complicated or clever (depending on your point of view) than I thought.
It needs a minimum of 15.8V to turn on preferably 20V and may turn off below about 11.1V so we are struggling with what we have.
It also has several shutdown modes any of which maybe the cause of our problems, eg. over-current, overvoltage.....
All of these shutdown conditions are somehow sensed by the same pin on the device - hard to get your head around!

The part of the power supply we are concerned with produces the main 5V, 3.3V and 12V hard drive supply.
I have had a concern from the first pic I saw but I dismissed it perhaps too lightly.
So I want to do a couple of checks on this to eliminate it as a cause.

Your previously measured 90ohms between 5V and ground but I cannot see a check on the 3V3.
Please measure between J15 near the long output connector and GND or chassis this should be 3V3.
Also recheck 5V to ground, I think I may have said this is on J11 previously but that is not correct.
The easiest place to check 5V is probably on the end pin of the hard drive connector - I think it is marked on the board.
If 5V and 3V3 both measure the same they may be shorted - if so check with the meter.
If they are shorted (a long shot I admit) try removing the large heatsink/plate held in place with 2 self tapping screws.
Then check is the short is gone. If it has try powering up it will be ok without the plate for a while if it does come on.

I don't suppose we could be that lucky so perhaps you can poke round IC41 which regulates the hard drive 12V supply.
It looks like it's got 4 connections one of which is ground, check for shorts to ground on the other pins but there are capacitors present which may show as a sort until they charge up.

Just looking for clues at the moment. A problem on the main board could easily cause the problem so may be worth checking again with it disconnected.

[jphilweybr]

Thanks stroker.
Resistance between 5v and GND I’ve measured both at the female part of the output plug, and from the blobs of solder on the underside. Unfortunately, I cannot check directly with the HDD output because it, and the output plug is soldered in to the PCB – you can’t pull it out to get to any header pins. Tonight it’s still giving me 96 ohms.
Between 3v3 and GND, I don’t get a stable reading to J15 nor to the output wire. It may start at around 800Ohms then steadily rise, may give a flash to a few MOhms or OL, and then come back to around 8kOhms. On the underside it did stabilise at around 860 ohms. Incidentally the SATA power cable does not carry 3.3v – only has four wires. So actually there are two 12v and two 5v connectors to the main board, one via the long plug and one via the SATA cable direct to the HDD. Also I had previously checked that I had 12v at the output end, but not 5v nor 3.3v.
Looking at IC 41 there are only three pins on the underside, the middle one being GND. No short to either of the others.
All the checks I’ve done when powered up were with and without the main board connected and with and without the front board connected.

[stroker]

I want you to try to check 3 diodes D41,D42 and D43.

D41 is near the heatsinks and D42 and D43 are 3 legged devices one on each of the heatsinks.
With D42 and D43 the outside legs are joined together so check between the middle leg and either of the other legs.
These checks will be more difficult than before, there are capacitors connected as before but these diodes also have lower forward voltage drop.
So instead of reading about 600 in one direction they will read about 100.
You may not be able to get any sensible readings due to the capacitors and the transformer interfering.

Note the 12V supply for the hard drive is different from the 12V on the main output connector.
The hard drive supply goes off when in standby as do the 5V and 3V3 supplies.

I would really like to know the voltages on J2 and R61 these are near PC91 measure R61 end furthest from PC91.
This could help explain what is happening on the output side of PC91 which is confusing me.
It may be easier to get at these if you remove the large heatsink, otherwise you may have turn the board upside down.

I think we need to start thinking about getting IC91 replaced.
Although the voltage readings above may throw suspicion on PC91

[jphilweybr]

Thanks again stroker.
Before I reply directly, I’d better tell you of a thought that came to me in the night. I said yesterday that all the checks I’d done were with the main board disconnected and connected. True, and also of the last one linking R98 and R95 when no sign of life appeared. But with that one, and the main board disconnected, I did not re-check voltages at the output cable. I did that tonight, and hey presto, I had 5v and 3.5v at 3v3! It’s just the fan didn’t kick in, but, come to think of it, we’ve had 12v on the main output all along. Not tonight, but I can check voltages at the fan header pins, and even try it out in a computer.
So you are on to something stroker, and sorry I didn’t think of that before.
As to the other points :
D41 shows infinity in one direction and 402 (0.4v) I think in the other.
With D42 and D43, I’ve tested at the underside from the middle pin to the others. I don’t get a stable reading, but they dance around in the 70s and 80s in both directions. I don’t get an infinity reading in either.
With the link between R98 and R95 still in place, voltage at the cold end of R61 is 3.5v, and at J2 1.9v

[stroker]

Wow I wasn't expecting that - well done for your discovery.
This proves the power supply is working apart from maybe some of the on/off control.
I think we need to stop for a while and confirm what we have working.

I know I suggested using the fan to indicate that power is on but for some reason this is not suitable.
If you run any checks on the fan you need to check it's voltage rating it may be 5V or 12V etc.
I would expect the fan is OK anyway.

If you have a SATA hard drive available we may be able use that to indicate power is on as it will spin up.
No need to connect the data cable just the power cable.
As I said before the 5V, 3V3 and hard drive 12V come on together if the HD spins all 3 supplies should be present.

If you can use a hard drive in this way we can check if it spins with/without the mainboard connected.
And again with the main-board connected and with/without the front panel connected. This will be quicker than using a meter.
I suggest using an old hard drive as power will be going on/off many times which will not do it much good.
If you cannot use a hard drive just use the meter on one of the supplies 5V, 3V3 or hard drive 12V.
Be sure to turn the main power off when plugging/unplugging power connections to any of the boards.

If you get good results with this try removing the link on R95/R98, and unplug the main board.
Turn the main power on and check if shorting 5VS and P/S (J7 to J9) causes drive to spin.
If it does it will show the on/off control circuitry on the power supply board is working but unfortunately suggests the fault we are looking for is on the main board or front panel.

[jphilweybr]

Thanks stroker.

I'm out for the rest of the day, so will get back to you ttomorrow.

[jphilweybr]

66144Thanks, stroker. I had got round to thinking it was time I took stock. So today, as well as doing the measurements you asked for, I’ve re-done a lot of the others and taken time to prepare a little do***ent. I’ll try uploading it as PDF, or failing that as a pic (you have to pay to upload pics, which I’ve done).
A short summary of what comes to my mind, albeit I haven’t got past Chapter 1 of Teach Yourself Electronics (if there were such a thing!) :
You’ve clearly found a way of fooling the standby switch system by linking R98 and R95. I can get all the voltages needed at the output cable and the SATA cable, which can fire up a HDD.
When I remove the link, we lose +9v and +3.3v. and the SATA voltages.
Nevertheless, there is no voltage at the fan header pins on the main board under any scenario.
There is no voltage drop through R98/R96 nor through R95 – except through R95 when it is linked to R98.
Nothing lights up the LED on the front panel.
The front panel switch has no effect in any of the scenarios we’ve put it to the test.

[stroker]

Thanks for the summary it is very useful and has pointed out something important I think we had missed.

If correct, I would like you to double check, it shows that the front panel kills 5VS, I think this is on J7 on power supply.
It's important to double check this so we don't chase a red herring.
Then with front panel still connected check for a short from 5VS to GND.
Check continuity from 5VS to the pins on the 7 pin connector on the front panel, I think the larger connector just carries display data.
So you are trying to find out where 5VS is on the front panel, I assume it does does go there?

Remove and unplug the front panel and check for shorts across capacitors CE1 and CE2 you can also check for shorts across the red/orange glass diodes and also ZD1 (3 connections) near the transformer. Note these devices are SMT (surface mount technology) they are soldered on the surface of the board as apposed to PIH (pin in hole) which have leads that pass through holes in the board.

Looking at the pic of your front panel I don't see transistor Q1 is there one?
Please post a pic of the other side of the front panel as I think I will need this.

[stroker]

I have split this into two posts so please read the previous one as well.

To answer a couple of your questions.

Wire jumpers on the power supply - the circuit board is single layer, it has copper tracks on one side only. Connecting certain points together is impossible using the tracks on the board because you need to get over/around other tracks. They are sometimes referred to as wire bridges which is perhaps a better a better name. More complex circuit boards a double layer or double sided with tracks on both sides which effectively use tracks on one side to jump or bridge tracks on the other side. Then there are multi-layer boards which have copper layers inside the board.

Difficulty reading the marking on devices - in more recent times manufacturers have changed to laser marking to put printed details on devices. I am not keen on this as it is sometimes very difficult to read. Previously they used to use ink marking which was much clearer but who is said progress was supposed to be an improvement?

I have looked as some other power supplies and would suggest that PC41 and PC91 are PC-17L1. I would expect just about any opto-isolator to work but you need be careful as they come in different packages, some have 4 pins like ours but others have 6 or 8 leads.

[jphilweybr]

Yes I did check the 5VS voltage several times on Dec 29th because I didn’t quite believe it. Then yesterday, the same thing – only this time I was no longer surprised. And to repeat, with the main board connected, the voltage is there, but once the main board is connected to the front board, it disappears.
OK, now to today’s homework.https://www.satpimps.co.uk/images/smilies/07.gif
With the front panel connected, the resistance between 5VS is about 95ohms, much the same as when no panel is connected to the PSU board.
The front panel is connected to 5VS by Pin2 of the wider connector (i.e. the one next to the red wire)
Resistance across CE1 was 94ohms. In hunting for continuity to 5VS, and elsewhere, I come across several resistances around the 94-96ohms range. That can’t be a coincidence, so what’s the reason? Sorry if I’m jumping to Chapter 19 of the Beginner’s Guide to Electroncis!https://www.satpimps.co.uk/images/smilies/redface.gif
Across CE2, I measured 116ohms.
Across D1, D2, D3 and ZD1, I’m getting resistance readings in lots of kohms and Mohms – in the case of ZD1 just OL. However, I didn’t get proper diode checks. Here, I may be running into a problem with these very small, closely-spaced components, in that my meter probes are a bit thick and my eyesight may not be up to it – despite paying through the nose for new specs just before Christmas!
Probably like you, I found Q2 near the standby switch, and Q3 and Q4 near the transformer – but no Q1.
Now I thought you might want to see the underside of the front panel board, and I’ve been looking at it myself. Trouble is it’s sort of navy blue with just dozens of small lines because all those little squares produce red characters in the display. So here are three. Maybe I'll try again in daylight.
Thanks for the explanations – you must be taking me into at least Chapter 5! A little confession – at one point I nearly made a fool of myself by asking you how is the box grounded. I could only think they are relying on the Neutral being connected to the Earth busbar at the house distribution board. And then I thought – well how else, so I didn’t ask.

[jphilweybr]

Well looks like I didn't manage to upload a pic, so another go now661586615966160

[stroker]

Thanks for the pics but cannot see enough detail.
Try and get it all in one pic like you did on the front side and then maybe 3 or 4 sections.

5VS is being killed by something on the front panel - I have a feeling for the transformer circuit - want to find a way of disabling it or removing power to this section.
I have been looking for data on VFD (Vacuum Flourescent Displays) but so far only got a headache! They are a bit like valves - anodes, cathodes and grids! :mad:

Can you check - are there devices hidden under the display itself?

The standby switch is it momentary or latching? Does it have an LED in the middle of it? It looks strange to me!
Is there continuity between 5VS and/or P/S and any of the pins on the standby switch (4 pins in a square)?

Which connector on the display board is P/S on? If it's on the same connector as 5VS unplug the other connector.
If 5VS is present try pressing standby button, perhaps check this with HDD connected to power lead - does it spin?
If that does not work unplug front panel completely and try shorting 5VS and P/S - does HDD spin?

[jphilweybr]

First a few more pics – better than last night’s I think.
As to the other components, I could not see anything directly under the glass. I could tilt the whole display unit up a bit to peer underneath and just found the square component in the pic, together with some small ones which may have been visible before. And I notice that this board has some tracks running on the underside and some above.
The switch does appear to have a little LED in it, but this will not be visible to the user, because it is covered by a brushed chrome button which you press. It has six pins. If I number the top row (nearest the cables in the pic) as 1,2,3 and the bottom row as 4,5,6 there is continuity between 1 and 3 and between 4 and 6. If I press the switch and let go, there is no change. If I hold down the switch, I get continuity between 1,3,4 and 6 –so the top row is momentarily connected to the bottom.
Yes, shorting PS and 5VS does power up the HDD.
I’ve found continuity between the main board, and pins on the front board for FL+. FL-, GND and +5VS – but nothing else – notably no PS, and no 12V or 5V. Hmmm. Should I be looking at the main board?
Will be breaking off now – you probably won’t hear from me again until Wednesday evening.
6616466165661666616766168

[stroker]

Thanks for pics they are much better.

You were asking about GND.
The term is quite often used very loosely and to my mind wrongly - I usually prefer to call it 0V.
It does seem to suggest it is earthed but in many cases it is not and is simply a reference/common point.
I would expect your mains lead only have 2 cores with no earth.
It would be dangerous to use neutral as an earth because under certain (external) fault conditions this could become live.
Also if the mains lead plugs into the box it maybe possible to plug it in the opposite way around causing live and neutral to be swapped making the chassis live!

Now back to the front panel.
Check for continuity between 5VS (or pin2 of the longer connector) and the middle pin of the 5 pins on the transformer.
Assuming you have continuity I want you to do something drastic but repairable.
There is a track running down from the middle pin of the transformer with 2 dogs leg bends in it.
I want you to cut across the track in the middle of the longest straight section so as to disconnect the connection to the transformer.
Use a sharp knife, scalpel or stanley type knife, do it slowly and carefully we just want to make a break the track without damaging anything else.
Cut or scrape away at the track until there is a clear break in it. If it helps you can scrape away the blue coating (solder resist) first to expose the copper track.
Then check you no longer have continuity between 5VS and the transformer.
Now connect everything back up and check if 5VS is present, if it is try pressing the standby switch - a little prayer may help!
If anything is not clear ask before doing the above.

I think the display needs a fairly high voltage produced by the transformer. It looks like the 2 output pins of the transformer are covered in silicone?
The display would presumably be on even in standby - showing the time?
Transistors Q3 and Q4 are prime suspects so see if you can read anything from them - only expect a few characters - you may find it best to shine a light across them while you look down. Another closeup view pic of the area around the transformer may be of help.

[jphilweybr]

Thanks for the info.
There is continuity between +5VS and the three middle of the five pins. There are two black lines from the centre pin. Did you mean me to cut through both? Sorry, I don’t know whether the two lines make one track or two tracks. I think I’ve displaced the wire enough to sever the longer one, but perhaps not surprisingly, I’m still getting continuity to +5VS.
The pins from the transformer near the edge of the board feel sharp to the finger; I don’t know what the smudges near the base are.
Yes the display was always lit up – can’t remember whether it was the time.
On Q3 and Q4, I can see EY and then two horizontal lines – maybe arrows in opposite directions.
Pics of my cut and of the transformer area attached.
I thought I’d check with you before going any further.
Thanks again.
6617666177

[stroker]

Thanks again for the pics.
I'm not sure you understood me completely - I needed to explain better - sorry I forgot you are new to this sort of thing.
The darker parts are the gaps between the copper areas, so the track is the part between the black lines you refer to, if I understand you.
From the pic though it looks like you have almost cut it anyway, you just need to cut a little more at the edges.
Perhaps you can have another look, a good magnifier would help you see.
I think the board is just double sided (no internal tracks) but I am not sure so do not cut too deep.
If in doubt just leave it for now, although if you can cut the track it could prove very useful as it will hopefully cut 5VS from the transformer.
If 5VS is then OK I am hoping the box will come out of standby, obviously without the display working, and we can see what is working.

Besides that can you make out the details on R17 and R18, they are probably the same but I cannot make it out from the pic.
Good luck!

[jphilweybr]

Hope this isn't a giant step backwards, stroker but I've had at least a mini-disaster.
After the last post, I was re-checking the voltages by joining J7 and J9, and something happened which caused a bit of a flash. I discovered that it had blown the fuse in the plugtop.The main fuse on the PSU BOard was not blown and I am still getting similar voltages to before between the IC91 heatsink and R95 and R96, but nothing at the output cable end.

Sorry!

[stroker]

OK - these things happen
Are you saying you've lost all outputs or just some? Was the front panel connected?

Don't forget we have 2 power supplies, the always on one and the beefier one which should come on when you short J7 and J9.
If you have 5VS etc. the always on supply is working.

Do not short J7 and J9 yet until you measure the voltages on each of these first and check for shorts. In fact do not short J7/J9 unless you find something wrong.
Check for a short to GND from 5V and 3V3, also check HDD power lead is not touching anything it shouldn't eg. chassis.
If you find anything shorted unplug the front panel and main board and see if the short goes.

If you find nothing wrong look for something burnt and check for smells (with power removed).
You say there was a flash this could leave a burn mark where something has shorted out when something touched something it should not have.
Is there a chance that any of the bits of copper from cut track has got in somewhere?

[stroker]

Is it possible you shorted J5 and J6 by mistake - check for burn marks on the links.

[stroker]

Ok let's do some checks.

1. Measure voltage between IC91 heatsink and R82 end nearest transformer expect around 330V dc. The incoming mains is filtered by L81, C81 and C82 to prevent electrical noise getting out of the PSU. Rectified by D81,D82.D83 and D84 and then smoothed by C85, the biggest capacitor on the board, this produces over 300V dc.

2. Leave powered up for say 10 mins, power off and check if C85 has got hot, if any of D81-84 is faulty ac could get to C85. This would usually blow the fuse but maybe worth checking. While doing this you can check if any voltages are present on the output end.

3. If you have no output voltages take a close look at IC81, A6351 next to C85, look for cracks and/or burn marks. This is the switching device for the always on supplies. Try to check diode D23 on the cold side of the transformer next to R24.

4. Link R95 and R98, as before, at there ends nearest the mains input, this powers up the main/beefier supply which is used when the box comes out of standby. The link also bypasses the usual power on control circuitry. Power on and check 5V, 3V3 and HDD 12V.

[jphilweybr]

Thanks and sorry to send you off on another avenue od detective work!

Voltage between IC91 heatsink and R82 is 19.2vDC – which I guess you’re going to say shows something’s wrong. Curiously, last night I found the voltages from there to R98 and R95 were similar to previous readings namely 11v and 1.8v respectively, but today I’m getting respectively 5.1 and unstable or zero. Also, I checked the voltage to R82 three times within the space of ten minutes or so, and each one was a shade lower than the previous – 20.0, 19.8 and 19.2.
D81, D82, D83, and D84 are all good – a shade under 0.6v in one direction and infinity in the other.
C85 did not get hot.
I see no sign of damage in the IC81, C85 area. Where pins enter the board, there are little patches of yellow around the holes, as there with many pins, particularly resistors. In fact, now that I’ve looked at them, the pics on the resource you found show something similar.
No voltages at the output end. The four GNDs have continuity to one another and to the chassis.

[stroker]

No problems - it's just disappointing because I think we were starting to get somewhere.

I think TH81 (thermistor - I think) has burnt out - the black round thing just above the big cap next to the two diodes. Push it over a bit so you can get at the leads and check for continuity. If it's open circuit as I suspect see if you get get any details from it. For the sake of comparison check continuity of smaller blue component next to R82. Having said that that may have burnt out as well - if it is open circuit check for details on that as well. Any colours I mention refer to the resource pics and may be different on your board.

Try to check the two black diodes and one glass diode near IC81. Also check for short from the diode next to R82 and the heatsink.

Please also measure voltage on the striped end of one of the diodes (D81, D82) above big cap, they are connected together, expect around 280V dc (a rough guess).

[jphilweybr]

Spot on stroker. TH61 is open circuit. It is labelled NTC 100-9, albeit I’ve also read it as 110-9 – bit of a smudge there. The adjacent blue C86 is OK – 67kOhms. There is no continuity between D86, next to R82 and the heatsink – OL.
D85, and D86 are OK. D87 is showing about 0.6v in both directions.
While I was about it, I checked D81 and D82, which are ok. The voltage from them to the IC91 heatsink came in at about 2.4 then I.5. However, all voltage readings now seem to have gone haywire. To R82 I’m also getting 2 or less whereas I was getting 19. To R98. I get 0.3, whereas earlier it was 5.1 and last night 11.
I sent you a PM two days ago on another matter, and I’ll send another shortly.
Looking at the picture on the other resource, I noticed there was a fan next to the mains input. Mine does not have one, nor there are header pins on the main board to which one could be attached. So perhaps they discovered early one that their PSU boards tended to overheat?
Many thanks

[stroker]

I have been looking for a replacement for TH61 but cannot find NTC 100-9, is it possible it could be NTC 10D-9. I am not familiar with the markings on these but somehow it seems 10D refers to 10ohms and -9 rates it as 2Amps. If you can get a replacement for TH1 I suggest you get two in case we miss something and blow another.

I made a mistake C86 is a capacitor and not a thermistor so ignore that. D87 not sure why it's 0.6v both ways.
Yes I read your PM it could be useful.

The purpose of TH1 is to reduce the current surge on power up as the large cap charges up.
We really need to bypass TH61 to check for further problems but I don't want to risk blowing the fuse on the board (just more things to replace).
I was thinking if you has some 2A fuse wire you could solder a piece between it's leads but this may blow anyway due to the power on surge.
Failing that we need to get a replacement for TH1. The checks we've done don't suggest any problems but if IC81 or IC91 are faulty the fuse wire would blow.
I will leave it up to you - do you feel lucky?

I am having problems uploading pics for some reason such is life!

[jphilweybr]

Thanks. Yes, I have a 2a capsule fuse. What would I join it to? The legs of TH61 having snipped the top off?
I’ve had difficulty loading photos. My last attempt was to prepare the text and then choose Go Advanced, not Post Quick Reply. Then I clicked on the insert image button, then select files in the pop-up box, and somewhere along the line there was an option to upload files, and that worked.
I’m out for the rest of the day, so it may be tomorrow before you here from me.

[stroker]

I would leave TH61 in position if possible just connect fuse wire across the leads.
This will prevent the leads of TH61 disappearing through the board if you apply enough heat to melt the soldered joints on the board.
If you are connecting with flying leads make sure it's well insulated as we don't want 300V going where it shouldn't.
If it blows don't keep trying there may be a problem we have not noticed or it may just be surge current.
Could check for a short from each end of TH61 to the heatsink but I think we may have already done this - not sure.

[jphilweybr]

Stroker VERY SORRY, I got it wrong two days ago. Having checked resistances from TH81 (and not TH61 which I read at first) and the heatsink – all high, I discovered there IS continuity across the two leads of TH81.
Well I know you like a challenge, but you don’t want them added to you in this way.

[stroker]

OK I'm just about to have some grub so may not post again for a while.
In the mean time could you measure the voltage form the heatsink to each leg of TH81 expect about 300V.
Also the voltage from the heatsink to each end of R85 and R86 which are next to IC81.
I think TH81 is the only thermistor on the board so don't worry if you get the name wrong.

If you do get 300V on both leads of TH81 you could link R98 and R95 again and check if you get 5V, 3V3 and HDD 12V.
I suggest you do this with the mainboard and HDD disconnected and prepare for a possible flash.

[stroker]

None of this is making sense we need to double check we have mains getting through.
Check continuity from live and neutral to the none striped ends of D81 and D82, one should have continuity to live the other to neutral.
If you do not have continuity (probably from D81) you need to double check the on-board fuse.
Live goes through the switch, then the fuse and then through a winding on L1 to D81.
Neutral goes through another winding on L1 to D82 - I would not expect L1 to be a problem.

[jphilweybr]

Thanks stroker.
Well after your 2.42 p.m. post I went to check voltages and got baffled because I couldn’t find any. I was about to report that when I saw your second post – no it didn’t make sense. I was wondering whether unplugging and re-plugging in the mains had damaged something.
Attached is a pic of the underside of the board in that area. What I’m now finding is that there is continuity between one of the input pins in the R80 and R81 area (upper part of the pic) and the hot side of D82. However, no continuity between the other input pin and anything, and not between D81 and anything. (Incidentally, how does the board distinguish between mains L and N, or doesn’t it need to?)
And now I swear to you over the last two or three days I’ve checked main fuse F81 periodically, but tonight it’s showing as blown.
Blast, to put it mildly
66184

[stroker]

Brilliant pic and clean looking board.

I spotted what I hope the problem is as soon as I saw it.
L1 is shown as two black lines as if it were links, which being an inductor or choke it is a short to dc.
Anyway if you look at the left hand line in the pic the solder joint at the top end looks fractured.
It could just be a shadow but it looks like there is a break in the solder joint looking like a black ring around the pin.
If this is the case just resolder it adding more solder.
Perhaps you can find a way of bridging the fuse with 3A fuse wire or a fuse on flying leads (make sure it's well insulated.
I will try to find a replacement or perhaps a local TV repairer may have one, 3.15A used to be common in TV's, they may even fit it for you.

The nature of the break could mean the continuity was intermittent which would have caused sparking (at the break) and surges in current (trying to charge the big cap when continuity was present) which would eventually blow the fuse. So perhaps this is an explanation and you (and me) are not going mad!

[stroker]

Forgot to mention - the board doesn't care which is live and neutral.
The mains is filtered then full wave rectified and the used to charge the big cap.

Everything after the rectifier is "half live" the positive half of the cycle goes to the positive connection to the capacitor and the the negative half of the cycle goes to the negative connection. The same is true for the neutral which is opposite it polarity and so supplies negative when live is positive and vice versa. This means that each connection of the capacitor is live for half of each cycle of the mains, or to put it another way live for half the time.

Not easy to explain or understand but trust me you don't want to touch either side of the resulting 300V+ supply.

The 300V is chopped/switched through the transformer primary winding and then the isolated secondary windings are used to produce the dc voltages we need. Feedback signals are passed back to the mains side of the circuit to control the output voltages produced. These feedback signals are passed through opto-isolators to maintain isolation between the low voltage side and hazardous mains side.

[jphilweybr]

Thanks for all the explanations!
First I’d better make sure I understand the lingo.
I don’t have anything marked L1, but I assume your suspect link is the one from near C81 to near C83. If so, the pin protrudes a bit but it looks OK and there is continuity there, and e.g. from R80 to R91. Could be intermittent though, so will add a bit of solder. More pics attached.
While, I was about it I checked for continuity from the screw hole (top ends of C83 and C84) and the GND pins on the output end, and found none. Is that OK? And no continuity across C83 and C84.
My plan to by-pass F81 was to run sheathed wires to a capsule fuse well clear of the board. Is that what you mean by flying leads?
It strikes me I should take some time out to systematically check the diodes and resistors that we’ve looked at before.
I’ve ordered some replacement components which should be with me in two or three days.
661856618666187

[stroker]

Sorry should have been L81 - looks like a transformer but is two inductors (or chokes) built on one transformer core.
The sort of break I am seeing would still show intermittent continuity.
I would also explain a the lack of continuity from D81 to anywhere as reported earlier.
You should have continuity from D81 back to the fuse and until you do we aren't going anywhere.

The screw holes each end of the board will have continuity when the board is screwed into the chassis.
C83 and C84 are low(ish) value caps and should not show continuity, they are used to filter out electrical noise which we are not worried about at this stage.

You plan for the fuse is fine as long it is reasonably well insulated which I think you understand.

Did you order a solder sucker? I can't live without one!

By the way I sent you an email.

[jphilweybr]

66190

Thanks, stroker, and thanks for the pic showing where I should have continuity. I’m uploading it now in case anyone else is interested.

My only worry about the GND continuity was that most of the time I have the PSU Board out of the box, so do we still have a 0V point? Hope you’re not getting tired of these elementary questions!

Well do you know, I’m getting on a bit and I’ve managed to live all those years without a solder sucker. In fact, until a fortnight ago, I would have thought that was a misprint, perhaps missing an f somewhere and a b or something somewhere else. Anyway, my life will soon be complete because I have ordered one. As well as some braid, pencil flux, and while I was about it, a new soldering iron. My existing one would probably be OK for the fault you spotted, because there’s nothing else near it, but I wasn’t sure about the more delicate work I expect you’ll be getting me on to soon. I’ve also ordered two replacement fuses (I’m sure to ruin one), and replacements for IC 91 and A3651. In fact, I think I might take a break and wait for that lot to come rather than mess about with temporary fixes. I’m out all day Tuesday anyway, so maybe I’ll get on to some of this Wed or Thurs.

[stroker]

Thanks for uploading the pic, I notice it is now about 1mB whereas when I sent it to you it was more like 4mB.
Perhaps I should send it to myself before trying to upload it on here and then it might work!

I really wouldn't worry about those GND's but when we get the PSU working again you can screw it in the box and you won't have to worry anymore.

After ordering all that we won't have any excuses for not fixing at least the PSU.
It's good to see you've still got a sense of humour after the recent setbacks!

I agree we should have a break from this while your parts arrive.
Whoever breaks radio-silence first is a sucker!

After we fix the PSU it will be back to the real fun and games!

[jphilweybr]

Well would you believe it, the shoulder shucker was due for delivery Monday, but still hasn’t come. Don’t tell me I am to be denied one of life’s rarer pleasures after all!
Actually, a few other things due yesterday or today haven’t come either. Royal Mail 2nd Class must be busy. So there’ll probably be radio silence from me for a few more days.

[jphilweybr]

Well would you believe it, the shoulder shucker was due for delivery Monday, but still hasn’t come. Don’t tell me I am to be denied one of life’s rarer pleasures after all!
Actually, a few other things due yesterday or today haven’t come either. Royal Mail 2nd Class must be busy. So there’ll probably be radio silence from me for a few more days.

[stroker]

I had an item delivered 2nd Class recently and it turned up about a week later than expected.
Alright so I said I couldn't live without a solder sucker but to be honest I cannot remember the last time I used it!

If your sucker still hasn't arrived you could try removing the fuse by just pulling it out while heating the two pins alternately and then clear the holes with desolder braid.
You need to be careful not to apply too much heat for too long or you may risk the copper track lifting from the board. Applying flux or fresh solder will help the solder to be more fluid and make the job easier.

I would like to see what results you get after changing the fuse and touching up the solder joints on L81.
I would not bother with IC81 and IC81 just yet as I suspect one or both of them are still OK.

[jphilweybr]

I did the folder tuckers an injustice – it was next Monday they promised and it came today. However, I’d like to wait for my new soldering iron before getting on with this.

I’ve ordered a replacement IC91 – due last Thurs but not here yet – but not an IC81.

[stroker]

I thinks it's time for a short progress report since we have not posted much over the past few days.

We had a bit of set back recently which turned out hopefully to just be a blown fuse on the PSU board but until this is replaced we will not know if there are any other related problems. I believe the blown fuse was caused by a fractured solder joint on L81 so we will touch up the solder joints on all 4 pins of L81.

Jphilweybr has had to order some parts and soldering equipment and will soon be practicing his soldering skills before turning his attention to the fuse which is soldered on the PSU board between L81 and the white 2 pin connector. We will then look to see if there is any other damage and continue fault finding.

We had previously discovered that the 5V standby supply (5VS) was apparently being overloaded when the mainboard and front-panel were connected. With the front panel disconnected 5VS was ok which seemed to point to the front-panel being the problem.

However jphilweybr managed to find more information on the net which suggested the problem may still infact be with the PSU itself. The finger of suspicion being pointed towards C21 but after looking at the pics of the PSU board I could see that C22 could also be a problem as they are connected together via inductor L21. So when we get the PSU up and running again to the same extent as before we will be checking C21 and C22.

[jphilweybr]

66292662936629466295
A few things to report, but I’ll mention the main points first.
1 We are back to where we were two weeks ago. I’ve fitted a replacement fuse at F81 and I’m now getting the same voltages at the output end of the PSU board as before i.e. all except 3SV and 5V, and no SATA to power a HDD. With a link between R98 and R95, I get them all, and SATA works. So the readings in the pic I posted on Jan 7th are still valid.
2 With the main board connected, we still get +5VS.
3 I haven’t cut continuity to the transformer on the front panel board yet in order to do this check. Connecting both sets of wires to the front panel again kills +5VS.
4 However, joining only the longer connector, which carries +5VS produces a different result. First, I get an LED flashing slowly in the standby switch, but nothing on the display. Also we still have 5.1V on +5VS on the PSU Board (J7).
Pics attached of the new fuse, and repaired solder on L81. Also rest of PSU in case its useful.
A few other points.
Voltage from hotside heatsink to TH61 is 333V.
I checked all the diodes I could find and all were OK except:
D21 about 0.09V in both directions
D24 0.4V in one direction, 1.4V in the other.
D41, D42, D43 infinity in both directions, but I’m not confident about those readings. Once D43 showed OK.
To practice I took a capacitator off a redundant PCI card from an old computer. As I don’t have a capacitance meter, I did a resistance check and watched the readings start low and steadily climb; switched the leads and same again. I don’t know its rating – it’s just labelled SM1106. There’s another one labelled KM1106. On another card, I’ve got one rated 222µF and 16V.

[stroker]

This is great news, all supplies up again and a flashing LED. At long last a sign of life!
We can ignore the meaning of the flashing for now since we are powering on in an abnormal way, I assume the R98/R95 link is still present.

I was a little concerned by your readings of D21 but after checking there is a 100R resistor (R21) across C22 which would probably explain that.
I don't see anything too worrying in your pics so I guess we need to remove C21 and check it using the resistance check method.
I notice from your pics that C22 is a different value to C21.
For completeness I would suggest removing and testing C22 as well.

I need to point out that these capacitors are polarised so when replacing them they need to be fitted the correct way around.
Just to confuse everyone it is usual for the negative lead to be marked rather than the positive so be careful.
You can always check the orientation in you pics before fitting them.

If C21 is faulty and you don't have the right value you may be able to use the 220uF 16V you found for now but we cannot be sure if this will work properly.
Of course you can always order a new one - perhaps I am just getting a little impatient!

[stroker]

While you have C21 and C22 removed I suggest you remove R21 as well you should then hopefully be able to test D21. You will need to unplug the motherboard. This way we can be sure of everything in the 5VS supply, the only other component is L21 which is not a worry.

I looked at some old caps I had removed from a PSU a while ago.
They seemed OK using the resistance test, the tops were not bulging but the bottoms were!
The PSU at the time was working OK but I noticed that the ends of these caps felt quite hot so I replaced them anyway.

[jphilweybr]

OK, I’ve taken C21 and C22 off the board.
C21 resistance starts in the 8MΩ range and then GOES DOWN. Same with probes reversed. Repeated the check a couple of times after shorting with a pair of pliers to discharge. Same patterns with different numbers.
C22 shows resistances going up. Unfortunately, I’m not well equipped here and just used an ordinary G-Clamp to hold the capacitors in place, and C22 is a bit too small and got squashed in the process – pic attached. So it may be damaged.
As you know, C21 is rated 370µF and 10v, and I’ve got one rated 222µF and 16V. C22 shows 22µF and 50v. I’ve got one rated 22µF and 16v. Shall I go ahead trying these if only on a temporary basis?
I’ll remove R21 later today
66297

[stroker]

Both caps should only have 5V on them so the caps you have are worth a try.
Your squashed C22 may be ok but it's safer to use the 16V one you have.

C21 doesn't seem too healthy - don't know why it should behave like that!
So chuck the caps in, observing polarity of course, I don't think we have anything to lose.

If you feel the need too check D21 remove it and check it off board, you may find it's a bit tight in the holes so be careful.
I suggested removing R21 as it would be easier but you need the caps out to test D21 in circuit properly.

Feeling optamistic about this, if 5VS is ok with everything plugged in remove the link on R95/98 and see if it powers up from standby button.

Good luck!

[jphilweybr]

Supplementary info:
I disconnected R21, and D21 showed 1.5v and infinity, albeit the latter with a an occasional flash of voltage.
R21 reconnected and reads 95Ω. While R22 shows 3.28kΩ. Hope nothing to worry about there.

Will try other caps tomorrow - probably late afternoon.

[stroker]

D21 looks OK although I would expect less than 0.6V but infinity one way is always good.

R21 is 100R resistor and R22 is 3K3 (3.3K) but is on the -25V line.

The 220uF you are going to try is half the original value (470uF) but I will be very surprised if does not work or at least show an improvement.
So tomorrow is the big day!

[jphilweybr]

Sorry, I should have said 0.15v.
And, yes I was puzzled by 50V given th66299at the largest output voltage we've got is 30, but what do I lnow?. But just for you to double check, here’s a better pic. 5, small space (no decimal point), bigger space V; next line 2, same small space, 2, bigger space, µF. Yeah, not easy to understand these Chinese!

[stroker]

That's more like it 0.15V these diodes are fast recovery diodes and have lower forward voltage drop than normal silicon diodes (0.6V).
Switch mode power supplies run at something like 40 to 70KHz and hence the need for fast recover diodes

I cannot understand why they used 50V cap for C22 unless they just had a stock of them hanging around.
I agree it looks like 50V in your pic.

You have reminded me of something that happened to me a long time ago.
I needed a cap for a 36V supply I was making and found what I thought was a 63V cap.
When the supply had been running for a while I could smell something getting hot but could not work out what it was.
Then all of sudden there was a load bang and there was silver paper everywhere around the room.
The case of the cap had popped off causing the bang and the insides of the cap were scattered around the room.
When I found the case of the cap I looked closer and found there was a very faint decimal point between the 6 and the 3. It was only rated at 6.3V

[jphilweybr]

Lol - that wouldn't have happened to me stroker! I wouldn't even have known what a 63v supply was if it hit me in the face - come to think of it a few other things did hit you in the face or got close.
Anyway, I'll get back to you tomorrow.

[jphilweybr]

I’ve found I also have a cap rated 300µF and 25v. Would that be better than 222µF and 16V?

[jphilweybr]

And now I've found on that is actually rated 22µF and 50v - on a simple modem card.

[stroker]

The 300uF 25V would be better.

Use the 22uF 50V (just because it's the same as the old one) unless you want to keep the modem card intact.

Sorry for the delay in answering I've been out and about.

[jphilweybr]

Unfortunately, I’ve hit a snag here. I’ve now spent an hour and a half, maybe two hours making five attempts to get old capacitors off. They all have pins not folded over but vertical. I clear the solder off the underside, but the components are not loose. I wiggle a bit – wiggle the capacitors that is – and I can lift the 1mm or 2. With the first I tried to pull it up, fearing that the leads would simply pull away from the cap, and in fact that was what happened. Again unfortunately that was the 22µF and 50v one, and it was the only one I have. Blast! Should have tried one of the others where I have several to play with.
The best I’ve been able to do is remove the solder and then gouge a hole through the board with a bradawl. That partially worked with two, but perhaps inevitably one of the leads got partially broken in each case.
Any tips someone?

[jphilweybr]

Just a thought, should we get a replacement C21 anyway, because if we find a solution, we might as well do a like for like? And if it comes to C22, should we go for a 50v version?

[stroker]

Damn I was hoping you won't have this problem!

I believe you have some electrical knowledge so you will understand that high currents need heavy conductors or cables.
If they are not heavy enough you will have a large voltage drop along them or at the extreme they will burn out like fuses.
There are heavy currents involved in electronics especially PC motherboards.
You won't see the heavy conductors because they are buried in the internal layers of the board.
These are usually referred to as power planes and ground planes.
Heavy conductors will conduct heat as well as electrical current and act like a heatsink absorbing the heat from your soldering iron.
So to solder on these power planes you need much more heat than usual, so you need a high power soldering iron.

I think you have a large soldering iron, perhaps you could use this to heat both leads at the same time while adding more solder.
Once the solder is fluid in both holes you then pull the component out - be careful it will be bloody hot!

Another possibility which will sound quite extreme is to use a hot air gun which is normally used for paint stripping.
Again add fresh solder to the solder joints and perhaps some flux as well, apply heat with the gun.
As above pull the component out when the solder is flowing freely.
Using this method a lot of nasty fumes may be produced so do it in a well ventilated area.

If all this seems a bit too much I suggest you use the 222uF and the lower voltage 22uF caps you already have.
Fit the caps lifted a little off the board so they are easier to remove if/when you need to.

[stroker]

It won't hurt to get the correct values for the caps - they don't cost much.
You could order them anyway if you don't use one or other of them it won't be a big deal.
I was just hoping to see the thing running sooner rather than wait for new caps to arrive.
I guess a few more days won't be such a big deal if you'd rather go down that route.

[jphilweybr]

Actually my 22µF and 222 µF caps are on a PCI card and fixed the same way. Anyway, before trying the extra heat methods, I decided to do the bradawl gouging method another go and succeeded. Bet you they don’t teach that in college! So I had a 330µF (not 300 as I said before), showing OK in the resistance test, for C21. The 22µF ones weren’t up to the job because the leads were too short. The one I took out of C22 has long leads which are bent out to span the gap. So I put the old one back, along with the 330µF one in C21.
Powered up with the R98/R95 link still in place and just the one connector to the front panel. OK, same as where we were – flashing LED at the front, SATA powered.
Removed the link, and still OK – LED and SATA working.
So, joined the other connector to the front panel. Up to now, that would have killed off +5VS – but not this time! We still have 5.1V between J7 and GND, SATA working and the flashing LED. We also have 2.4v at P/S – J9 - and a steady 11.9v at the fan header – it’s just the fan doesn’t turn
So great work Stroker – looks like your deduction that C21 was faulty has been proved right.
We’re not there yet though. Nothing else shows on the front panel and the standby switch has no effect. I haven’t finished cutting the track between +5VS and the transformer on the front board.

[stroker]

Don't bother with the track cut now, I wanted to do that because I thought the fault causing the 5VS problem was on the front panel. It looked like you almost cut it anyway, check if 5VS still gets to the middle connector of the transformer on the front panel. If there is no continuity bridge the track-cut with a solid piece of wire you will have to scratch the solder resist from the track each side of the cut first so you can solder the wire to it. The track should appear as copper with the solder resist removed.

I think some boxes start up fully when first powered up and not in standby which would explain the HDD running, but this did not happen before, this could be because we now have a stable 5VS. Then why does't the fan run - does it comes on at a certain temperature or run continuously?

I noticed some time ago there is a coin cell on the motherboard like used on PC motherboards. I would expect this to support the RTC (real time clock) when the box is powered off but it could also power the memory containing the boxes firmware if the box use volatile memory. They usually use non-volatile memory which retains info when power is removed. Anyway easy thing to do is check the cell/battery should be 3V I guess - if it's dead you will need to replace it.

The flashing LED may suggest a firmware problem or so I read somewhere.

Do some searching on how to flash the firmware/software, I am sure I read that you can do it from a USB stick and you press certain buttons when powering up and you get a response from the display saying USB or FLSH or something. I will try to find where I read this and let you know but I expect it's easy enough to find this on satpimps. Anyway what I am looking for is some reaction from the box that would suggest flashing may be possible. Don't rush into flashing just yet - we need to consider the risks if there are any. You will need to find software to flash anyway but lets make sure we know what we are doing before we try.

Perhaps someone else could give us some advice on the best way to flash the box assuming we need to.

I'm going to get some grub now so may be gone for up to an hour.

[stroker]

Trying to post a PDF file - software update is on page 30.

The "Hard Turnoff" by pressing OK and Standby may be interesting to try.
Then press and hold standby until display reads booting.

Of course we don't know yet if the display is working!

[jphilweybr]

This was just ready to go off when I got your last post.
First, I’ve checked that we have continuity to the transformer on the front panel.
The fan is 12v and I’m getting a steady 11.9v at the header, so I assume the fan is faulty. I can try another 12v fan I’ve got lying around, but it has a different plug so would need snipping the wires.
Coin battery is showing 2.8v.
Sorry you took the trouble to get the manual, I have it here. Of course, the last time I flashed the firmware, I had the front display, but I pretended just now I was going to do it again. The procedure is power: down at the back – “cold on/off” they call it, then power back on and hold down the power (standby) and OK buttons. This stopped the SATA drive, but we still had the 5VS voltage and 2.4v at P/S. If you think this is worth pursuing, I suppose I have to put everything back together and connect to TV and/or PC.

[jphilweybr]

P.S.
Also holding down standby and OK buttons, the LED changed from flashing to steady.

[stroker]

That's a good sign - at least it has responded to the keys being pressed.

Perhaps we need to bite the bullet and hope for the best if you think you can flash the box blind.
I think we have probably gone as far as we can hardware wise apart from perhaps the display but that may be controlled by the firmware so if that is corrupted we won't get a display until we flash the box. The problem is how do you know when it's finished flashing I would assume the new firmware only starts running when you power off and on!

I see they mention files with "no_boot" in the name I think these will flash without over-writing the basic boot software.
The basic boot software is critical if we corrupt it we will be in more trouble, so if you can find a no-boot version to flash I think that would be the best to try.
Note I am not familiar with this box so what I have just said may be crap!

[rottan0]

I've followed this tread, with big intress.. My ip9000hd was totaly dead. so I tried to desoldered the green L something on display Board. The result was flashing flashing Power led. So I followed you to on the tread and changed the c21 470uf 10 vith a New one, New value 470uf 16v. And then everything worked again. I tried to mesure the old capasitor and did really not see any fault With an ohm meter... Until I compared it to an New one. The old capasitor used looooong time to get carged compared to the New one.
So to you both Stoker and jphilweybr thank you for the help and Greetings from Norway

[jphilweybr]

Thank you rottan0 – especially good to have someone other than Stroker or me contributing to this thread. I’ve ordered a 470µF cap so maybe that will make a difference.
Meanwhile I’ve been checking on firmware and all the images I have are noboot_nnnn – or so I gaily thought when I started writing this post. Then when I accessed all those I have on my computer, I got the message ”The disk image file is corrupted”. So I downloaded two more from this site kindly uploaded by dypcdiver and trying to open them, I get the same message. Blast (not the word I used) is this a Win10 problem?
I still have a Win7 system, but needs fundamental repair, and an XP system which involves shutting down the computer and reconnecting a drive.
Has anybody else come across this problem?

[stroker]

I think you will find that windows sees files with extension img as a disc image file - used for backup/restore of hard drives.
I expect you can ignore the error message, copy the file to the USB stick, rename it etc and then perform your magic.

[jphilweybr]

Well I’ve tried the blind firmware approach without success Without the display, I could only try a USB stick with a no_boot image, and hold down standby and OK buttons – once leaving for half an hour or so. There is an effect in that the LED changes to steady but nothing else that I discern.
Other things I noticed:
Powering off at the mains then back up did produce a momentary stripe on the TV screen. Twice it produced speech sound – so must have switched from AV1 to TV for say half a second.
SATA drive not working at all – but maybe the failing HDD I used has even stopped ticking now.

[stroker]

Yes it was not going to be easy!

I checked the manual is says press and hold standby while powering on releasing the button when "booting" is displayed - how long would that take, a few seconds?
Then press the up arrow button - the display shows "USB Upgrade" and then the update starts automatically.
It would help if your USB stick has an activity LED then you would see if something is happening.
I hope you remembered to rename the file to usb_update.img
Other than that I think the USB should only have that file on it and presumably formatted as FAT32.
Remember if anything is wrong it will not even try to flash.

There are other methods mentioned in the manual. Over the internet from the box itself - a none starter for us!
Using flash tools remotely from PC connected via USB - you need to get "USB Upgrade" on the display so probably not viable either.

Can I assume the LED still flashes on power up?

It might be worth bridging the track cut we made anyway - it's worth a try!
Be careful not to short the track to the surrounding copper area (probably 0V) - on the other side of the dark lines you mentioned.
Scratch the solder resist from the track each side of the cut - should now be bare copper - coat with solder and solder a solid wire across the break.

You can also try measuring the transformer secondary (on the front panel) voltage on the 2 pins side of the transformer this will be ac not sure what voltage to expect, maybe up to 200V, but that is a very wild guess!

[jphilweybr]

Thanks yes tried that. From memory, it takes two or three seconds, so I’ve given it about ten, and then left it alone for twenty minutes or so. I’ve also tried a couple of variants, for instance the Cube Revo manual says follow with the right arrow button - with the same result. Actually, the front LED goes off, but we still have our voltages, and pressing the standby button has no effect.
I could re-solder the track, but we are getting a steady 5.11v at the transformer pins.
I’ve also checked other voltages on the front pcb. The longer connector has 11wires. One is GND, one 16.1v, one 22.3v, one 24.6v (which may be –ve), five have 5.1v and two have nothing. There are no voltages on the shorter connector.

[jphilweybr]

Hey, I didn’t see the last sentence of Stroker’s post.
Well guess what – no AC voltage! That Stroker may be on to something again.
It’s labelled M210VFD.

[jphilweybr]

Hang on, I’d better calm down.
Stroker when you said measure the AC voltage, I was expecting one pin to be N and the other to be L, so tried both ways round. Is that right, I’m not expecting a voltage between here and the chassis?

[stroker]

Yes just between the 2 pins of the transformer - it looks like it's covered in crap you may need to clean it

[jphilweybr]

Yes, that’s the one you thought was covered in silicone. In fact I did my best to try for readings from the top of the pins, and in any case the leads looked clean, the slight mess was only on the surface of the board. I’ve done a bit of scraping with a Stanley knife, and also got some contacts into the leads on the component side of the board, and still no voltage. The readings dance around and then run down to zero, except this time they stabilised at about 0.7v – once in each direction.
On another site, someone reported a problem with a chip on the main board. Mine is perfectly clean and looks OK. The pic shows shades of brown, but that must be the light; in fact it’s black, clear white lettering and sparkling leads.
I’m being a bit naughty here. I keep wanting to try anything that’s suggested, but it means I’m neglecting other things. So, must discipline myself and take a couple of days off. Apologies to Stroker, who has been amazing and I suspect is even more impatient and frustrated than I am!
66321

[skomedal]

I've followed this tread, with big intress.. My ip9000hd was totaly dead. so I tried to desoldered the green L something on display Board. The result was flashing flashing Power led. So I followed you to on the tread and changed the c21 470uf 10 vith a New one, New value 470uf 16v. And then everything worked again. I tried to mesure the old capasitor and did really not see any fault With an ohm meter... Until I compared it to an New one. The old capasitor used looooong time to get carged compared to the New one.

THX

Already mentioned in the first few thread posts ( capacitor fault ).

[skomedal]

Or dry solderering joint/points ( not soldered fast to the CB )

Edit

_http://handycrowd.com/diy-tip-fix-dry-solder-joints-on-electrical-circuit-boards/

[stroker]

Jphilwetbr I agree the chip looks ok as far as I can see from that pic.
I know you want to spend less time on this and that's ok but perhaps you could find a short time in the evening to try a thing or two.

Found this advice about flashing on another site which may be worth a try (copy and pasted):-
1. we strongly recommend to format your USB memory stick before the new image copy in it, otherwise, it may happen "ER10".
2. You have to change the name of updated sw into "usb_update.img" when you upgrade the sw by the USB memory stick.

It may also be useful to refit the link on R95/98.

Another thing is connect the box to your network via ethernet and see if you can see it on the network.
If you can you may be able to access the web interface of the box by typing its IP address into your browser.
You could also try to access it with an FTP client.
We are just looking for signs of life at the moment.

Finally can you remember if you have installed uboot in the past or does it just have the standard boot loader?

[jphilweybr]

Thanks Stroker.
First I’ll answer the one 66327question I can. The only upgrade I’ve done in the past is to upload an image. It may not even have been a new one. These machines were known to go into “Panic” mode – usually when you were trying to list media (items I’d recorded from TV), so you lost what you were doing and had to start again. Re-loading the image was one way of dealing with it – only temporarily IIRC. I followed the instructions in the CubeRevo manual, pic attached. So, no I had never heard of uboot or boot loader until this week.
I’ll get on with your other suggestions, but I really think I need to give it an uninterrupted couple of hours at least, and that will not be for a couple of days. Sorry! As an aside, I never got the machine on to my network. There was some Catch 22 involving the PC Editor software, and I didn’t get into Linux, despite buying the box with my eyes open. But now that you mention it, I didn’t try Ethernet – just wi-fi.
My next move will be when the replacement capacitors arrive. I also have a replacement IC91
Well, there you are. I said I’d discipline myself and take a break, but couldn’t stop myself from posting this.

[skomedal]

My next move will be when the replacement capacitors arrive.

Remember Capacitor polarity ( +/- ) important.

Good luck

[stroker]

Jphilwetbr were you flashing with a USB stick?

There is another method using a USB printer type cable (square end) and using flashtools V1.02 - it is shown on the same page of the manual you posted.
Using this method you can see the progress of the flashing on your PC rather than doing it blind.
I tried to attach flashtools but cannot get it to upload let me know if you need it and I will email it to you.

[jphilweybr]

Thanks.
Well I've been unable to find a version to download, so yes please, email one.
Very intermittent internet access this week and next.

[stroker]

email sent, if I had realised how small the file was I would have sent it to you before anyway.

I also mentioned that we checked +FL but not -FL which I think are something to do with the filaments in the display.
C24 is worth checking as it connected between these to supplies and if faulty could cause the display problem.

[jphilweybr]

Well, I’ve had a chaotic few days, but have found some peace and quiet this morning. However, I cannot report progress, in fact it looks like a step backwards.
First, I installed a new 470 10v cap at C21, instead of the temporary. Foolishly, I didn’t do to the resistance check before fixing it, but seems to be OK. I also had to take a couple of minutes out to do a temporary fix to the mains input as the socket had come off the board.
The result was where we were a few weeks ago – no +5V or +3VS on the output cable. So had to restore the link between R95 and R98, and then I had those voltages. No SATA power though, but that may be because my test HDD has failed.
Voltages on FL+ are 22.v and FL- 16.5v. I could check those at both the PSU and front panel ends.
I’m still getting 5.1v DC at the input to the front panel but no voltage on the two output pins. Curiously, and I discovered it by accident, if I put a probe on one pin only, I’d get a steady 3.0v AC, but as soon as I got the other probe on the other pin, the voltage ran down to zero.
Thanks, Stroker, for the flash tools. I’ve installed them, and then tried connecting the receiver and PC with the USB A-B cable. Of course, I’m working blind, but holding down standby and the right arrow for several seconds produced no reaction on the PC – so I never get the opportunity to load the drivers. Nothing shows up in Device Manager.

[stroker]

I am beginning to think we made the wrong decision when we tried flashing because we seem to have lost any signs of life we had previously. If we had done it with flash-tools the result may have been different! Anyway onwards and upwards there's a few things we can check while I come up with a new plan of attack!

1. On the display board I would like you to measure the voltage (to GND) on the first and last pin of the display itself, I expect this to be FL- and FL+ but I could be wrong.

2. Remove the battery/cell for a while and if you can remove the tuners - some people have mentioned problems with these. Later refit the battery but not the tuners power on and see what happens - no change I expect but always worth a try.

3. Check CE1, CE2 and ZD1 on the display board, you may be able to check the caps on-board otherwise remove them. ZD1 is a zener diode but can be checked in the same way as a normal diode - only 2 pins need testing, I think the 2 nearest the transformer but not sure. If you cannot test ZD1 try melting the solder to freshen it up but be careful that all 3 are not melted at the same time or it may slide of the pads.

4. There is a 20 pin header(connector with nothing connected) towards top left of the motherboard is there anything to identify it's purpose? I think it may be a JTAG connector (used for low level programming). Perhaps you can take pic and perhaps a close up pic of the 64 pin chip you posted recently.

From your post FL voltages are probably OK.

The 3V ac reading is probably just sent to try us. You could check continuity between the 2 pins on the transformer
It reminds me of a mains powered unit I was fixing a while ago there appeared to be believable voltages everywhere in the unit but it turned out the mains transformer primary winding was open circuit - fitted a new transformer and it was fixed - wasted a few hours on that one!

[stroker]

Just thought - when checking out the suspected JTAG connector please measure the voltage on each corner pin - this may give a clue what it's about. I expect one corner to be 5V or 3.3V another should be GND and the others two may be a bit random.

[jphilweybr]

Sorry – only just got this posting. As to previous posting, if by the pins on the display itself you mean the long line of pins on the underside below the two sets of connectors, then there is no continuity between neither +FL (Pin9 on the long connector), nor-FL (Pin 10)and the first couple or last couple of the long line. Voltage to the long pins was 25.2Vor so. I tested several of them at random, and they came in the same, or a bit lower. At the same time +FL was reading 22.2V.
I had come across the possibility of faulty tuners, so I had removed both for most of the checks I’ve reported.
There is continuity across the two pins of the output of the front panel transformer.
ZD1 OK – one probe on the single pin and the other on the pin next to the transformer – 0.6V and infinity.
CE1 and CE2 left in situ, and both show increasing resistance and with probes reversed.
I should have mentioned yesterday that I tried both C24 and C25 on the PSU board while in situ, and they both passed the test.
Can’t make anything out of the twenty pin header – not helped by my magnifying glass going AWOL. Will try and upload some pics tomorrow I’ve come out without camera.

[stroker]

Thanks for the info - will digest later.

I have sent you an email with slightly different (USB) flashing instructions.

We still have the possibility of flashing using RS232 but I think this only allows flashing the boot loader.
It is usual for RS232 to work when nothing else does but you will need RS232 on your PC/laptop.

I am interested in this possible JTAG connector there would be a reset pin on it which could be useful to us.
I am having trouble uploading pic of what I am expecting so will send by email.
If we briefly short reset and GND we may get the box into a better state.

[jphilweybr]

Looking at the 20-pin header from the front, the top left pin is GND. To the pin just below it there is 1.8v. There is no voltage to the pins on the right hand side.
Just thought I’d check voltages at the standby switch. On the middle pin of the bottom row, I get 5.1v, which is the +5VS voltage. However, I don’t see continuity from that pin to any of the other five, whether or not the switch is held down. There’s something like 1.7v on the other two bottom pins, and nothing on the top.
I also thought I ought to re-check the voltages at the output end of the PSU in case something had changed. In the course of that I found I did have SATA power. But, with front panel disconnected, reconnecting the PSU to the main board caused SATA power to be lost.
6637266372

[jphilweybr]

Sorry second pic here66374

[stroker]

Need to think about your header reading - not quite what I was expecting.
Don't understand what's happening with the SATA supply - will look at that later perhaps.

With the standby switch I think the middle pins will be the LED and checking your post from 09 Jan (I think) the switch contacts are top and bottom corner pins.
I think you will have continuity between top and bottom corner pins with switch pressed.

I believe the flash is stored in the socketed 44 pin device to the right of the battery.
Do not try to remove this device yet as it can be easily damaged - there is a special tool to remove it but you can do it without the tool although you can damage the pins of the device and the socket if not done properly. In fact it's not much easier with the tool. Anyway you could try pushing the device down into the socket - sometimes they work loose and lose contact on one or more pins.

Assuming the switch is working I think we need to try blind flashing the boot loader I don't think we can make it any worse!
You need to rename the file to usb_uboot.img, I am thinking that the software for the display etc must be in the boot loader.
We should be able to use RS232 to flash as a last resort later anyway or at least I hope so. Flashtools can be used with RS232 but of course we have to sort out a cable and suitable PC/laptop to go down this route

[jphilweybr]

Apologies for a longish silence – poor internet access, and, as you’ll see, a lot of confusion on my part.
I’ve had another look at the 20-pin header, and found the following:
Top row, even nos 2-20 – all GND.
Bottom row odd nos:
1 1.75v
3 unstable, hovering around 1.0v
5 as 3
7 1.75v
9 nil
11 nil
13 nil
15 as 3
17 1.75
19 nil, but once got 0.88v.
I also noticed one or two changes. I had previously measured voltages from the hotside heatsink – getting 333v to TH81, 21v to R98 or 11.6 with the link to R95in. Now, I got unstable readings from it. From the chassis screw, I get 325 and 7.6v to R98 and to R95 with the link in.
Well that’s what I found an hour ago.
Now, I repeat the check and get something different. I get stable readings from the heatsink, but not from the chassis. And I get no voltages at all on the odd number pins of the JTAG header.
Furthermore, I get a different picture near the heatsink. I’ve removed the link between R95 and R98. From the heatsink to R95 I get 1.26v, same to both ends. To R98 I used to get 21.6v, which would be present through to the cold side of R96. Now I get 1.27v to the hot side, 0.61v to the cold side and nothing to the cold side of R96.
Earlier today, I got SATA power with the main board disconnected; now I don’t.
As far as I can tell, I’ve done nothing to produce this change within the hour.
Now I have made a change. I removed the coin cell, removed both tuner cards and put back the cell. So check, No 3:
R98 comes at 21.1v – same through to the cold side of R96. R95 comes in at 0.4v on the hot side 0.9v on the cold side –yes, treble checked, that way round. Still no SATA and no voltages on JTAG. After replacing the link, there is 11.6v at R96 but still nothing at the JTAG.
Stroker, if your patience is beginning to get stretched, I fully understand.
If you’re prepared to stay with it one more day, I remember your first prime suspect was IC91. I do have a replacement, so could try that. Also replacements for Q3 and Q4 if that helps us get an AC voltage on the front panel.
Just an added point about the standby switch and its LED. When the system is powered up, the LED flashes for a minute or so and then stops flashing. During the flashing phase, the voltage at the lower middle pin alternates between 5.10v and 1.98v. When the flashing stops, it’s a steady 5.1v
Another noticeable feature now is that there is no voltage at the fan header. Previously, I’ve always had 11.9v there, and two days ago the fan even came on for the duration of one powering up. Also at the output connector (CN41) +8V comes in at 7.2v, whereas previously it was 8.3v.

[stroker]

I've only had a quick look at your post - I won't have much time today.

I would not rush into changing IC91 as long as you have 3.3V and 5V with the link fitted. As far as I can see the SATA 12v is only used for the hard drive - things to check are D41, C41 and IC41 - I like the way they have numbered the devices, trying to keep the numbers the same for everything in the same circuit. The SATA 12v supply comes off the same transformer as the 3.3V and 5V (but not 5VS). Looking at the PIC of you board the soldering on IC41 does not look too good so you could remove some solder and re-solder or just use flux to tidy it up.

I am not sure what's happening with your voltage measurements I will re-read your post when I get the chance.

The connector does look like a JTAG so pin 15 should be reset. You could check what happens when you short it to ground for a short time - you could use a jumper as used on PC motherboards shorting pin 15 and 16. I would expect the box to reset and go through the flashing LED sequence again.

I have to admit this has become a bit of an obsession and progress at the moment has ground to a halt but I still think we can fix this so I am not giving up trying at least for the moment.

[jphilweybr]

Thanks, now out until Sunday p.m.

[stroker]

I have been net surfing again and found someone who recovered one of these boxes with similar problem - no USB access and unusable display.

It involves using the RS232/serial interface and a terminal program to gain command line level access to the box, enable the USB interface and then use flashtools over USB to flash the box as normal. If you do not have RS232 on your PC you can get a USB to serial interface cable - choose one with female 9 pin connector so it will plug directly into the box. I have seen some advertised as for use with Dreambox etc.


Connect box to PC with serial and USB at the same time.
Open terminal program such as "tera term", putty or hyperterminal.
Select the corresponding comm port and set the speed to 115200.
Power on IPBox and repeatedly press ctrl+z on the PC.
When connected some messages should appear on the PC, you can type help for a list of commands.
You should see "startusb" type this and the PC should detect a new connection.
You should now be able to use flashtools.
Flash uboot first and then your required image.
Turn the IPBox off and on and.....

[jphilweybr]

Small update.
Before closing down on Friday, I did another voltage check and found I dis have SATA and I did have 11.9v at the fan header. Presumably something intermittent again. My suspect is CP22 which I refixed about three weeks ago. One of the solders looks poor as if a bit broke off after I did it. So I will re-do that and IC41 at the same time. Now in this house, if there’s a soldering job to be done, the kit has to be got out and then put away again. So, is there anything else I should try. Is there any harm in trying to replace IC91? Any other caps I should remove before testing?
Also I’m wondering whether the time has come to screw everything down again and try connecting to a TV. Or is that likely to be a waste of time?
I do have the capability of doing the test using Serial and USB cables, so that will be the second job after the re-soldering.

[stroker]

I am not sure what you mean by CP22 did you mean C22 or CN82?

Anyway going by your pics apart from IC41 (SATA 12V suppy) as already mentioned you could check soldering on
D42 - in the 3.3V supply looks like someone has been soldering this could do with tidying.
D43 - in the 5V supply looks like someone has been soldering this could do with tidying.
Transistor above R98 - used to turn on IC91 (5V and 3.3V supplies) - looks like someone has been soldering this could do with tidying.
CN82 - could do with tidying - I think you already had trouble with this.

IC91 I would not recommend changing this - there is probably heatsink compound (like cream or grease) between the metal part of the IC and the heatsink which is used to improve heat transfer. Unless you have some heatsink compound I would not bother as long as we have 5V and 3V3 with or withoutt the link on R95/98. If we can flash properly we should be able to remove this link.

It may be an idea to screw the PSU in place so that the filters work properly - we don't want any interference while flashing. I would put the lid on but maybe only fix with one screw - yes I am a pessimist!

As to strange meter readings I have had trouble with intermittent meter leads in the past causing confusion.

[jphilweybr]

Thanks – good to know that multimeter probes may not always be reliable, because I’ve often wondered and then thought is it me? So today, when I got an unexpected result, I didn’t panic. I did have another multimeter in tow, but in fact, after powering down and back up, everything was normal.
OK – today’s homework – have only managed a couple of hours.
First sorry, I meant C22. While I was about it, I replaced it with a new 22µF 50v. Actually, I bought the box new, so no-one has soldered it except me. So I’ve tidied up CN82 and IC41 (I think I touched that with an iron by mistake while doing C21). However Q91, D42 and D43 all look fine and I thought if I do something, I could only do damage. So I left well alone. As regards IC91, I do have some thermal paste, but it’s left over from the last desktop computer I put together, which must be at least three years ago, therefore it may have dried out so I left that for another day. I tried a “repair” to the track to the transformer on the front panel but didn’t really manage a small enough bit of solder. However, I never severed the track and the transformer still gets 5.1vDC – but still produces no AC voltage.
So there are three stages to I went for:
First, I connected the PSU board to the mains, but not to the motherboard. With, and without the link between R95 and R98 I had the same voltages as before i.e. with the link I had all voltages and SATA, but without it no SATA and no +5V and no +3VS.
Secondly, I connect the motherboard with the link, and again, same results as before. – SATA working. Now I do get voltages in the JTAG – same as before with two exceptions.
Finally, I connected the front panel, and again no surprises. At this point I screwed it down, and also screwed down the PSU board. No changes except now the JTAG voltages are as I reported a few days ago.
I’ve closed down now, but tomorrow will try connecting to a TV. And then tackle the flashing issues.
Now there’s a point. The TV and the desktop are on different floors. I do have a serial to VGA cable so could connect to a laptop and a desktop at the same time. Is there any future in that?

[stroker]

My comments on the soldering are based on the pics you posted so anything I saw may have just been a trick of the light at that particular point in time.

I would not worry too much about connecting a TV I think you should be able to follow the flashing progress in PCTools. You will only need the TV after flashing has been successful.

I had a thought - what if you cannot enable the USB?
Well you should still be able to flash UBoot with PCTools using serial assuming you can get this to work - just select serial instead of USB.
If I read the manual correctly you cannot flash the main image over serial on this box only UBoot.
If you can flash UBoot you may be able to get the USB to work - may need to restart the box - and then flash the image with USB.
Good luck and fingers crossed!

[jphilweybr]

No luck with the serial plus USB connection – probably the result of my having an extension cable, so that input. So I will try swapping Pins 2 and 3. I take it the USB connector at the box should be Type B, marked client, with Type A at the computer. If something does work, would I expect to see any messages in the PuTTY box? And would I expect to see the box in Device Manager? Come to think of it, shouldn’t I see it anyway with the USB cable connected – just like my printer.

[stroker]

You will not be able to use USB until we get it enabled.
The first objective is to get some form of communication going which we are hoping to do over serial.

At each end of the cable ie the sat box and PC there is an input and an output, the output of one end has to be connected to the input the other end and vice versa.
Perhaps this may sound obvious but this is an important point.

A suggested method of working out which is the output of an RS232 port but does not always work :-
Unplug the cable, since each port in your case has a male connector this will be easier.
At the PC end measure the voltage to chassis of pin2 and 3, expect one to be near 0V (input) and the other negative (output, up to -12V).
Repeat the measurements at the box end and note the results. If you get good results check that you cable connects input one end to output at the other and vice versa.
You could of course just swap pin 2/3 at one end but I hope doing this test would be a more certain way of proving the connections are correct.

We are also working on the assumption that the box is alive to the extent that the RS232 port is working (which will usually be the case).
It may be working while the LED is flashing and not when it stops or the other way around. It may also work when the box is in standby.
Some but not all boxes output a data string over the serial port while booting giving a sort of running commentary on what is happening.

I am not sure whether you need to be pressing anything on the box to get a response from the serial.
You may need a lot of patience and a cool head with this.

[stroker]

Sorry I did not fully answer your questions.

USB yes PC to client connector on box as you would normally do using PCTools.

Initially we are looking for messages in Putty, USB will not say connected until the USB is enabled in the box, at which point you may be prompted for the USB driver n the PC. If you get serial to work but not USB try flashing UBoot with PCTools over serial.

It might be worth running PCTools at the same time as Putty - a response from anywhere would be good, although I am not sure if PCTools will say connected when serial connection is detected.

Make sure in Putty that handshaking or flow control is disabled or set to none in the port settings. If ctrl+z does not get a reaction try pressing buttons on the box eg up, down etc

I expect my last post about the serial cable may have confused you perhaps this may help.

Example of RS232 connection.
Voltages measured without cable connected.

-12v pin2 <--------------------------> pin3 0V
0V pin3 <--------------------------> pin2 -12V
GND pin5 <--------------------------> pin5 GND

[jphilweybr]

Good idea – much simpler, and good news I think. So on the male terminal on the box, Pin 2 gives no voltage and Pin 3 gives -8.6v. This comes on after the flashing LED stops – about two minutes after power on. It’s also the same measured to Pin 5 – GND. With the cable still plugged in to the PC, the female end of the connector cable gives GND to Pin 2 as -11.1v and nothing to Pin3. So it looks like my cable does do the crossover, assuming the pinout at the PC is standard. Is the disparity in voltage a worry?

[stroker]

Yes I think you are right if I understand what you are saying:-

PCBox PC male pin 2 0V
PCBox PC male pin 3 -8,6V

PC male pin ? cable female pin ? <---------------> cable female pin 2 -11.1V
PC male pin ? cable female pin ? <---------------> cable female pin 3 0V

So if you plug the cable into the box the negative outputs will connect to the 0V inputs - that's what we want!
Voltages are not too critical.

We need to check the port settings on the PC.
First check in device settings - do you have more than one serial port and if so are you selecting the correct one in PUTTY.
Sometimes you have a 25 pin port and a 9 pin port.

I need to try PUTTY and check if there are settings which could be causing us pain.
OK so I only seem to be able to see COM1 this may be a problem if you are trying to use another port. Set speed to 115200 and flow control to none and click open button at the bottom. Just noticed - on the left click session and make sure serial is selected and not SSH or any of the others.

If you cannot select the right port try another program - I tried TERA TERM the other day and it worked on COM4 when I used it on an old box that I was using to test it.

The fact that you get -8.6V from the box is an encouraging sign - I really think this should work!

[stroker]

Just tried PUTTY again you can select another port you just need to manually change it eg. change 1 to 2 to change from Com1 to Com2.
When you click open a text window opens to show the communication taking place.

By the way to get at flow control click serial at bottom left.

[jphilweybr]

Yes I only have COM port and I set it to 115,200, 8bits, no parity and no flow control. Same on PuTTY and PCEditor which incorporates flash tools Trying to use FlashTools/PCEditor to flash an update image produces the message
Failed to open com port: \\.\COM1, Error No. – 51
However, no mount of Ctr+Z, standby button/right or up arrows produces any response. One thing I did check was that we had a voltage at Pin3 of the box after the standby switch LED went off. We didn’t lose it by pressing the standby button.

[stroker]

I have managed to duplicate your error 51 with nothing connected to my port.
It means the port is open in another application.
So forget what I said you cannot use PUTTY and Flashtools at the same time.

I have run Flashtools using Com4 in my case, set it up to flash and have the messages:-
N:COM Port Monitoring Started[20:55:15]
N:Ready(9000HD_usb_iboot_1.3.3_24 1008.img[20:55:15]

Perhaps you can do similar and push, prod, restart the box etc to try and kick it off.

[jphilweybr]

Thanks in FlashTools I get it say Ready, but I can’t find a way for it to spring into action – not holding standby button and right button or up button, and powering down and then back up. Shutting that and using PuTTY I get the blank box and the green curso top left, but not beyond that.

[stroker]

This is very disappointing I don't have any suggestions at the moment apart from maybe shorting pin 15 and 16 on the JTAG connector to reset the box but I would think that this will be the same as power off/on. Need some time to think about this and consider what options we have left.

You could monitor the RS232 output pin from the box does it change at all? If it changes but we don't see any data we may have a serial port problem on the PC. Can we be sure the port works, have you used it for anything else?

You could disconnect the box and loop back to the PC by linking pin 2/3 on the box end of the cable then what you type on the PC keyboard should echo in the PUTTY box. I think that should work and will prove transmit/receive from PC RS232 port. Yes I tried it and it works.

You could try a lower speed setting say 9600.
I would like you to try Tera Term instead of PUTTY - will send you it by email - I think it's a simpler program with fewer settings to worry about.

I will be busy tomorrow but will check for posts when I can.

[stroker]

I had a thought - we have been careful to disable handshaking on the PC end but what about the box end?
The few boxes I have used with serial did not use handshaking and only used 3 wires, TX, RX and GND.
This may be clutching at straws but could be worth a try.

What you need to do is link pin7 and 8 and pin1, 4 and 6 on the box end, you can remove any existing wires.
Once again I cannot upload a file, I will email it to you.

Don't forget to try typing ctrl+z

Just an observation but I tried serial on my old Travelmate 6900HD the other day and could not get it work.
I remembered using a program before to backup settings called Clarke Tech Studio so I tried that and was able to backup settings.
So even though there was no apparent communication there seems to be some magic way to enable it at least in that case.
Perhaps there is a version of this program for IPBox you could try?

[jphilweybr]

Thanks will try that later - probably tomorrow now.

[jphilweybr]

I don’t think I’ve ever used the serial port on this computer for anything.
So I’ve linked Pins 2 and 3 at the female end of the cable from the PC. I open PuTTY in Serial and then type a few characters on the desktop or in MS Word, and nothing appears in the box. Same at 9600b/s and same in Teraterm.
Is that what you wanted me to try? I tried typing something in the box. Something appeared in PuTTY, but not Qwerty. In Teraterm it reproduced querty – or rather it did. Now I can’t type anything in the PuTTY box, nor in Teraterm.
I don’t think I can disable handshaking at the box end with the cable connected. Inside the box there is an 8-pin connector to the motherboard but it seems to be hard wired at both ends.

[stroker]

I think you are doing it right but just to recap.
Cable plugged into PC and link pins 2/3 on the other end.
For this test speed does not matter as transmit and receive should be the same speed.
If the port can't do this there is no way it will talk to the box.

Perhaps you could remove the cable and try linking pins 2/3 directly on PC port, I know it's male and probably around the back but I'm sure you can work something out.
Also check cable continuity - pin 2 and 3 one end to 3 and 2 the other, it is possible it may not be a serial cable. Of course you also need pin 5 to 5 (but not for this test).

Do you have an old serial card you can plug in and use instead or old laptop with serial port?
When I ran this test I used this laptop with a USB to serial cable and just shorted pins 2/3 and it worked on first attempt.

There is a setting in PUTTY/TERATERM for local echo, when turned on it will print in the box what it sends and what it receives, you should then see double/repeated characters eg aabbccddeeff

NB pins are numbered in opposite way on female plug:-

Female
5-4-3-2-1
-9-8-7-6

Male
1-2-3-4-5
-6-7-8-9

[jphilweybr]

I've unplugged the cable and Pin 3 at one end connects to Pin2 on the other and vice versa. And there is continuity between Pins 5.

[stroker]

The cable should be OK then. Either the port is faulty or you have a hardware conflict in the PC it may show up in device manager, double click the port and then advanced. You can change the com port number, for some reason mine says 3 and 5 are in use and is currently set to 4. When I tried changing this the other day it did not seem to work, but knowing Microsoft it might have done after a reboot.

You could try rebooting and using BIOS/Setup - disable any ports you don't need like parallel/printer (you could also disable USB temporarily) - you may have the option to change port number, address and interrupt settings try changing these and hope for the best. Other than that it looks like you need another port. The USB serial cable I suggested (for use with Dreambox) to you was only about £3.50 but of course that will take a few days to arrive. I suspect computer shops would cost more but I have not checked.

[jphilweybr]

Thanks. I have no LPT/Parallel port, no other COM ports, and Device Manager says this one is hunky dory and we know it does deliver credible voltages. So will try the Serial to USB cable.

[jphilweybr]

The USB-Serial cable came very quickly. No difference though. Repeated CTRL+Z orocuces no response in either PuTTY or Teraterm.

[stroker]

I forgot to mention that I came across someone saying CTRL+C rather than CTRL+Z so that may be worth a try.
Please try the link back test by linking pin2+3 to be sure to be sure.
I would like some details from some devices on the motherboard, there are 4 Hynix memory chips, 2 below the CPU/Processor and 2 to the left of it. Further to the left there are 2 5-pin devices with the middle leg cut short with an ST logo on them, I want to know the details from these and also from the smaller device (3 pins?) in between these. I think these are voltage regulators or power controllers/switches or something like that I want the device types to look up data on these. Some pics of this area could also be useful and if you can manage some voltage measurements as well that would great as well - be careful not to short pins with your probes when taking readings.

There is a large resistor close to these devices please check this, I think it should be 0.5ohm. Large device close to CPU right side is a flash device please read details so I can look up data. I think we need to look for signs that the CPU is alive and doing something and that attached devices have the supplies they need to function properly.

[jphilweybr]

Thanks, will got on with that later.
I've tried linking Pins 2 and 3 on the new serial female connector and typing something on the computer. There is no response either from PuTTY or Teraterm. I'm getting to wonder if there is something about my computer and these terminal programmes. Sometimes I can type in the dialogue box, sometimes not. Sometimes if I type say qwerty, I get qwerty, sometimes a string o ofther characters including backspace/delete. In Teraterm I've found where to enable echo, but haven't found anything in PuTTy. I'm running Windows Defender but nothing else I can think of.

[stroker]

That is really weird, how secure is your link? I would use a piece of stiff solid wire - the fact it works sometimes may suggest an intermittent connection. Do you have another PC or laptop you can try this on? I cannot find local echo in PUTTY either perhaps they left the feature out to keep the program size to a minimum. I really don't understand why it should behave like this but like I said before if it can't talk to itself it will have no chance with the box. In a way I am hoping that there is a problem with one of the voltage regulator type devices, a supply missing from the RAM's or flash chip would hopefully be an easier fault to trace. Check for hot or warm devices on the motherboard. Also if the CPU heatsink is stone cold it is probably inactive but "why?" would be the difficult question.

[jphilweybr]

No, the loopback has not worked intermittently. I'm using solid phone wire, which may be a little thin, but I'm careful to jiggle it about, press it aginst the sides of the socket etc. and it did give us the expected voltage readings.
I'll get back later on the other things.

[jphilweybr]

So having said that, I thought I'd better check the voltages on the new female serial cable and there are none. The old one is still connected i.e. female 9-pin to female 9-pin and that is as before. The new one shows up as SERIAL-USB CH340(COM5), and Windows says drivers up to date.

[jphilweybr]

I’m uploading a pic with the components labelled and the details I could ascertain. I’ve included a couple you didn’t ask for as there were some mysterious blobs on them. 66408664096641066411

[jphilweybr]

Short reply to another question. The box has been powered up for a few hours now. The CPU heatsink isn’t stone cold, but I can’t see that it’s any warmer than the chassis. The heatsinks on the PSU are only very slightly warm, but at least the kit below them is doing something, whereas I’m guessing the CPU has nothing to do at the moment.
Back to the serial voltage. We established my male RS232 port on the PC was delivering 11.2v to the box, but the USB is limited to 5v. Does that matter?

[stroker]

I do not think the blobs are anything mysterious, the 2 devices are programmable and would have been programmed before being fitted to the board. The marks I think are 2 show that they have been programmed and the blue mark on the flash device (U12) is probably to show that it has been verified - double checked to avoid having to remove it during production. The device in the socket (U17) can be removed if it has a problem the flash device would have to be unsoldered to replace it.

I am struggling to find data on the devices but will keep trying. I would really like to know what voltage is on CB67 small capacitor near the flash device U12, the one end will be 0V and the other (I think) is the supply for U12. The voltages on U3 (above the CR2032 cell) may also be interesting (middle pin is 0V). To be continued...

[jphilweybr]

OK, will check tomorrow, but…
Oops! Didn’t notice the last para to Stroker’s post of 20/02.
The bit about the component to the right of the heatsink I think I answered inadvertently because I wondered what the blob was.
Now big resistors? Are they the handsome green things with stripes labelled R200 and R94 – hey what’s that doing here, R93, R95 and R96 are old friends from the PSU board. Zero ohms – both multimeter. But then the green one on the PSU boars, R93, also shows zero ohms. Is that close enough to 0.5 ohms?

[stroker]

Sorry I did not notice your earlier post - It would seem to me that the CPU is not running but this is no real surprise since we have forced the main power on with the link on the PSU so it has not powered up in the normal controlled manner. Having said that I would assume the CPU should also be running in standby but perhaps using a low power mode. The CPU needs a program to run (in the Flash device), memory (the 4 Hynix devices) and power supplies to these devices. The CPU also needs a clock and a power-on-reset signal to kick it off. So the 64 million dollar question is what are we lacking and why? I need to do some thinking - I notice there are some test points near the CPU marked as TP followed by a number but we don't know what each is meant to show us - life's a bitch!

Just had a thought perhaps you could replace the link on the PSU with a switch, then we could power up with just the standby supplies and then close the switch to bring on the main supplies. If you do this be aware that high voltages will be on the switch - any switch will do - perhaps a light switch. But we really need to work out how the standby switch is supposed to bring on the main supplies - perhaps the switch idea would just be a waste of time.

Concerning voltages USB uses levels of 0V and 5V, RS232 levels of +12V and -12V so although they are both serial interfaces they use different voltage levels and are not directly compatible.

R200 and R94 was expecting low values so that sounds about right - a stab in the dark really. Component numbers usually only relate to the board they are on, so you could have for instance R5 on the power supply another R5 on the motherboard and yet another on the display board and each of these could be different values and be in no way be related or connected.

I think I need a drink!

[stroker]

Right, perhaps you could check this out first, The memory runs on 2.5V not sure where that comes from just yet and U3 (NE57811) produces some related signals including a 1.25V reference. The 4 Hynix memory devices have the supplies on the corner pins with one side's corner pins being 0V and the other 2.5V

U3 has 5 pins if you look at it with the pins at the bottom and the body at the top the pins are numbered left to right 1 to 5 with the middle pin being 0V. Pin1 and 2 should be 1.25V and 2.5V, pin5 should also be 1.25V, pin4 is a called shutdown, not sure what to expect on this. Again be careful not short pins with the meter probes.

I think this is a good place to start and will hopefully give us a clue as to is or isn't happening.

[stroker]

Please check for 2.5V on each of the 4 Memory devices - I think they may not all be supplied from the same source.
I'd like a pic of devices below the JTAG connector and to the left of the CPU ie from U23 to U3 include the 2 memories - thanks.

[jphilweybr]

66415
U3 voltages:
Pin 1 1.31v
Pin2 2.62v
Pin 4 2.62v
Pin 5 1.31v
Hynix memory chips: 2.62v on all four.
I did find it very difficult to measure Pins 2 and 4 – several times got nothing, and several times killed off some voltages completely – HDD stopped clicking and failing fan stopped grinding. So tried to heed your warnings but a probe obviously slipped – maybe I shorted 1 and 2 for instance. When that happened +5VS ws still present.
Hope the pic is OK.

[stroker]

Pic is good thanks, voltages seem reasonable, not sure where we go from here. Worried about probes shorting could do with finer probes.
Returning to think mode....

[stroker]

Sorry for the pause in posting I'm still searching, mainly in vain for data on some of the chips on the motherboard.

I have found data for U21 STV6412BD which is just used for switching video and audio inputs and outputs so we can probably rule this out as causing our problems.
The SM8952AC device in the socket near the battery is quite a complicated CPU/Controller/IO/Flash device which is much more interesting as regards our faults but I am still looking into this and may take some time to digest.

We have discovered 8 fuses (names starting with FB) on the motherboard next to the main power connector but unfortunately all are intact.
List of components next to connector below, courtesy of jphilweybr.

Between the caps and the PSU connector, there are lots of tiny components. Running from Pin 1 towards the back, they are:
CB144
Q101
R222
CB138
FB29
CB139
FB28
FB27
CB140
CB141
FB26
CB124
FB24
FB25
FB23
CB137
FB22
CB143

I will not be posting quite as often over next couple of weeks due to other commitments but I will still looking at this when time allows.

[stroker]

I am taking a break from looking at the motherboard for the time being and concentrating on trying to get the display to work instead as this could give us some badly needed clues as to what is actually happening. Some of your recent voltage measurements suggest to me that there may be display data getting to the front panel board.

I am trying to convince myself that due to the loss of the 5VS supply the two transistors driving the transformer Q3 and Q4 could have blown.

There is a simple check on transistors you can do with a meter where the transistor can be tested as being two diodes with the common pin being the base. So you should see a diode between base and collector and another between base and emitter. If you look at the Q3/Q4 with the two pins at the bottom I think the base is the left hand pin of the two, so check for diodes from this pin to each of the other two pins.

If you don't follow this and you are feeling brave you could just go ahead and change Q3 and Q4 which I think you may have replacements for. If my theory is correct and the transistors you have are equivalent to the old ones I am hoping the display will then work - fingers crossed!

[jphilweybr]

66497
Many thanks for your continuing help Stroker. And a good time for you to take a break, because I took a nice holiday and found lots of things to sort out when I got home. One involving an Axxr laptop merits a thread in its own right but probably not on this site!
Anyway, I’ve managed a little bit of time today and here’s a brief report.
I’ve had a look at Q3 and Q4. I’ll call the pins Left, Right and Top. The following results were identical for both Q3 and Q4.
1. There is continuity to GND to the Right hand pin
2. The diode test was normal for the bottom two - + 6.5v with the red probe on the left and Infinity with it right.
3. Similarly, Red probe Left, Black probe upper +6.5v, infinity the other way around.
4. With red probe on the Right and black probe upper about 0.12v and infinity the other way around
5. There is no voltage between the chassis and the bottom pins. There is 5.07 to the top pins – the same as at the transformer middle pins on the back.
6. I did buy two of the BCW65 transistors, when they were a mere £1.21 each, but at the moment cannot find them.
I don’t know about D9. There is a blob on the L31 side, and I can measure 4.6v to it. However, while the pics show something at the other end, I get no voltage there. Nevertheless I can do a diode check on it. With the red probe on the L31 end, I get 6.5v and infinity the other way. I realise that I didn’t correctly identify D9 in my post of about three weeks ago, I was referring to a larger component – probably the label Y5 refers to it.
I think this is the best pic.

[stroker]

From your results I would say that Q3 and Q4 on the front panel are OK.

Your results for D9 on the motherboard are much more interesting. From your pics it looks pretty certain that the bottom end of D9 is connected to pin 10 on the Syncmos chip which according to the datasheet I downloaded is the reset pin. If I understand you correctly the bottom end of D9 is at 0V and is holding the chip in a reset state which would prevent it from doing anything!

I would expect the reset pin on the chip to be connected to a resistor and capacitor. D9 is there to discharge the capacitor quickly when power is turned off. So the resistor could be open circuit, the capacitor could be short circuit or there could be an internal short in the chip. There is also a possibility that there is something else connected to this circuit which is causing a short.

First thing to do is check for a short from bottom end of D9 to GND, if there is I would first suspect the capacitor next to D9 unfortunately to check this the motherboard will need to come out (as I am sure you already guessed). Check for a short across the cap to confirm we have the right cap, you will then have to remove the cap to check it is shorted and also check the short has gone from the board itself. If the cap is not shorted and the short is still present on the board take a pic of the underside of the board in this area so we can try to see if anything else is connected. If the cap is shorted replace it with the nearest value you have as long as the voltage rating is greater than 5V.

If there is not a short we need to check the resistor is intact and soldered properly. One end of the resistor would be connected to 5VS and the other to the capacitor and the bottom end of D9. I think the resistor is R228 on the other side of the capacitor - first try to read the details from the resistor, expect 3 digits - the first 2 digits are just digits the third is the number of noughts to stick on the end, for example 103 is 10K (1,0 and 3 more noughts). See if you can measure the resistor and check continuity, one end should be connected to the top end of D9 the other to the bottom end - you should be able to measure the resistor with your probes across D9 using a higher range (you should measure the resistor with the probes one way, and see D9 with them reversed).

I think the Syncmos chip, which includes a CPU, does all the low level and standby tasks, while the main CPU only operates when out of standby. The Syncmos chip presumable drives the front panel display and takes in signals from amongst other things the front panel push buttons. If I am correct on this the box will not do anything until we get the chip out of it's reset state. This could well be a huge breakthrough I just hope the cause is something easily fixed.

[jphilweybr]

66515
Thanks.
If Q3 and Q4 are OK, could there be something wrong with the transformer? Is there a way of checking that?
Resistance from chassis to the bottom end of D9 is 7.6kΩ. To the other end, I get OL.
Just to double-check, the next checks I have to do need access to the underside of the motherboard? I think R228 is 822 – see pic, so 8.2 kΩ?

[stroker]

I tried to post an example diagram of a POR circuit but was unable to upload it as usual!
I have sent it to you by email - perhaps you can post it on the thread for me - thanks.

Do not take the motherboard out just yet - you may not need to.
Since you measure 7k6 from bottom end of D9 to GND we do not have a short.

Try to measure R228 it should be 8k2 as you say, also measure voltage at each end - the cap should charge up to the same level as 5VS so you should have about 5V at both ends of R228. Because you measure 7k6 to GND the cap may not charge up enough.

I need you to confirm these measurements (R228 and voltage each end) before I ask you to do anything else. The cap may well be faulty but I need to be sure of the details - can you see what value the cap is? do you have something similar? I think the cap is between R228 and D9 - looks like CE47.

I would expect the transformer on the front panel to be OK since you have 5V on the top pins of Q3 and Q4. The 5V would be fed through the transformer primary windings.

[jphilweybr]

R228 is tiny and not easy to get probes to make contact, but I finally managed to get a resistance reading of 7.7 kΩ. I didn’t managed to get a voltage though. I think I was making contact at least at one end, because the reading settled at 12.6mV, whereas without any contacts the meter usually runs back to zero.
CE47 is 50V 10µF. The one next to it is 16V 100µF. I have some 50V 22µF and some 10V 470µF.
Sorry, I can't upload that diagram either.

[stroker]

Yep those little resistors are a real pain.

Can you measure the voltage on the bottom and of D9? We need this to be over 3.5V

I think we need to bite the bullet and get the motherboard out, remove CE47 and test it, which I hope is faulty.
Also measure the resistance from bottom end of D9 to GND which I hope will be much higher than 7k6.

I would fit 16V 100uF test it first so we know it's good then put it all back together and see what happens.

I have high hopes for this - good luck!

[stroker]

Having internet probs.

If CE47 is not faulty check the cap next to it - I may have picked the wrong one.

[jphilweybr]

Well with the motherboard still on, the resistance to the bottom end of D9 is 7.7 kΩ, 15Ω to the L31end (not OL as reported yesterday). There is just 12mV to the bottom end, 4.7v to the L31 end.
So I’ll get the motherboard off. It promises to be fiddly to get all the ports at the back loosened and removed. To double check, the cap I’m removing is 50V 10µF, so would my nearest replacement be some 50V 22µF?
I’ve managed to make a picture, albeit third rate, of your diagram, hopefully now uploaded. And if it’s the other one that’s faulty, would my 10V 470µF be OK?
66530

[stroker]

Hang on a minute

You've only got 12mV on the bottom end of D9 - it's looking like R228 is either faulty or not soldered properly. Check this first before taking the motherboard out. Beware the resistor may come loose when you heat it and come off the board.

Perhaps a better thing to try for now - short D9 top to bottom with a pair of tweezers or pliers and see if anything happens. That will raise the reset pin to 5V and get it out of it's reset state. It will return to reset when you remove the short.

[stroker]

And yes sorry 22uF would be best - I miss read your post - still wrestling with my router.

And 470uF for the other but it is more likely to be CE47.

I think the top end of R228 may not soldered properly - you saw 12mV on the bottom end nothing on the top (should be about 5V) - be very careful soldering as these resistors come lose very easily, if it does it may be on the end of your soldering iron bit.

Check for continuity from top of R228 and top of D9.

[jphilweybr]

66533
Too late! I’d already removed the motherboard when you posted.
R228 looks clean through a magnifying glass. I can’t get a better picture though than the one I posted yesterday. If I’m going to get closer, I think I will have to remove both the capacitators next to it.
Shorting D9 didn’t seem to have any effect. I removed the R98/R95 link so SATA stopped working. Shorting D9 didn’t bring it back on produce any light on the front panel.
Resistance between the top end of D9 and the top end of R228 starts off at zero and creeps up to 15Ω. Between the two bottom pins there is continuity. Diagonally, there is 7.7 kΩ. Voltage is 12mV to both bottom pins, 5.7v to the top of D9 and say 2mV to the top of R228.
Attached is a pic of the underside of this area. Neither D9 nor R228 are connected to the underside. In the centre right, there are signs of some damage. I assume that happened during assembly and has been there ever since.

[stroker]

I think I need to look at this again the reset circuit is more complicated than I thought. Looking closer at your earlier pics the top end of R228 is connected to ground and not 5VS which is why you measured 7.6K to GND from the bottom end of D9.

I am convinced we are onto something here but it is not as simple as I thought. I think we can leave the link off R98/R95 now.

It looks like U4 (above the 2 caps) has something to do with the reset circuit. Please check continuity from bottom end of D9 to each of the pins of U4 - pin1 is nearest R41 then count anti-clockwise around the device. Check CE22 is not shorted. Is R42 missing (may not be needed)?

This circuit is really strange and if I understand it correctly could be a very dodgy design - I'll be back!

Thanks for the pic - leave motherboard out for now.

[jphilweybr]

Thanks Stroker. Happy cogitation!
On U4, Pin 7 on the corner near the Syncmos chip is connected to ground. To that pin from D9, resistance starts at zero then climbs to 7.7kΩ. All other measurements are in the MΩ range or OL. Measured on the underside, CE22 reads 270Ω

[stroker]

OK I take back what I said U4 appears to have nothing to do with it. I need some more facts so I need you to check a few things.

1. Remove CE47 and test it just so we know where we are, leave it out for now but keep it safe.
2. Between the top edge of the Syncmos chip and the big resistor R194 there are 2 small resistors, check for continuity between R229 and R228/D9 (bottom ends?)
3. Take another pic of the area above your previous pic, I need to follow the 4 thin tracks in the middle going upwards.
4. Take a pic of the top side of the board showing the area to the right of the Syncmos chip to the far right . It might be easier to take a full width pic of the board below the main CPU as long as the detail is good.
5. From your previous pic the tracks going to the big resistor R194 appear discoloured or possibly burnt, perhaps you could take a closer pic.

Don't expect a quick reply - other things to do today.

[jphilweybr]

66538I’m going to have to leave CE47 until tomorrow.
Meanwhile, here are some other pics I took a couple of days ago.
Again difficult to get readings from R229 and R230. Assuming the covering of the Syncmos chip is non-conductive so I am actually measuring the resistors, they both come in at 100Ω. From their bottom ends to the bottom of D9/R228 resistance is 4.2MΩ.
Yes, I had noticed that some areas of the motherboard (green part) look a darker shade, but looking at them now, they all seem clean. Let me know if there is another pic you want me to take.

[jphilweybr]

66539
Another pic. Sorrry, the system has started outwitting me again.

[stroker]

This is a pretty good pic, I would like a similar pic or the top side of the board please.

From this pic it looks like pin3 of the power connector (third from the right in pic) is not soldered properly but it's right on the edge of your pic. The other pic you posted today shows this problem more clearly. By the way it looks like pin1 of each connector is soldered to a square pad on the board while all other pins have round pads.

I am trying to work out what signal/voltage is on pin3, if it is the same as pin3 on the power supply it is 3V3 which is a very important supply indeed - could this be the cause of our problems?

I could do with a close up pic of this end of the power connector to try to make sure that it is just a fractured solder joint and not more serious damage.

[stroker]

I should point out that this will not be the only problem since the 3V3 (and main 5V) supply only comes on when the box is out of standby. However if we can get the box powered up with the link on R95/R98 on the PSU we may be in a position to flash the firmware. But this is no time to get carried away - one step at a time!

Anyway back to IRLvWAL - come on Wales!

[jphilweybr]

6654566546665476654866549
I assume you’re referring to the 11-pin connector to the front panel, so I’ve taken a couple of pics showing these from the side. To me they all seem to have the pin protruding from the solder.
The square pads on the PSU connector and on the front panel 11-pin connector are both GND.
For the PSU connector, Pin 1, defined as the one with the black wire, is on the left of the picture and carries +FL. So the third from the right, call it Pin 13, carries 3VS, and Pin 12 5V.
For the 11-pin connector, Pin 1 with the red wire is on the right of the pic and is connected to GND. Pin 2 carries +5VS.
Now here’s an odd story. You may even regard it as good news, but more likely bad news.
Prompted by your query about the solder, I set about checking the voltages on the front panel.
At this point things are normal. The failing SATA disk is clicking away. To remind you, I’ve always had all the voltages on the PSU output connector, except +5V and +3Vs. Now with the R98/R95 link in, I have those as well.
So checking the front panel I measure in the following order:
Pin 2 5.1
Pin 11 –
Pin 10 17.3
Pin 9 24.0
Pin 8 26.5 (could be minus – didn’t check)
Pin 7 3.5
This seemed significant, so I stopped to write this down and went to re-check in case I’d missed a pin. Now, I couldn’t find a voltage at all in any of them.
So I check the PSU output at the motherboard pins. Apart from two, no voltages there either – no 8v for instance and no +12V though the SATA HDD is clicking away. The voltages I do have are 3.4v at+3VS and 4.4v at +5V. I also have 336v between the rear heatsink and TH81.
It may be that just powering down and back on again may restore things. But I’ll leave it on in case there’s something else you want me to check.

[jphilweybr]

665506655166552
A few more pics

[stroker]

Sorry for the delay in answering I took advantage of the good weather to catch up on a job I needed to do on the car.

Thanks again for the good quality pics.

Sorry that some of this is getting confusing. Perhaps I should have mentioned that it was the 15 pin connector with the badly soldered pin. This is best shown in your pic img_4960.img if you look at the third pin from the right you can clearly see the (empty?) hole that the pin goes into below the solder. It is not the solder further up the pin that is important but the (lack of) solder joining the pin to the pad on the board. The solder needs to connect the pin to the pad. The hole in the board is probably what they call "through hole plated" and the pin may be touching the plating but for good connectivity the pin has to soldered to the plating in the hole. The quality of the connection is even more important with low voltages because the currents involved are much higher.

Please re-solder the pin I have high-lighted leaving the soldering iron on the joint for at least a few seconds to get the solder to flow freely through the hole. The pin on the far right could also do with similar treatment and also the 3 pins on the far left - these are not as bad as the one mentioned above but are not the best.

I am not sure what to deduce from your voltage measurements but please continue to mention such things as I am still looking for clues. If the hard drive you are using is a 2.5" one it will not use 12V only 5V.

I am still concerned with the D9/CE47/R228 situation - all I have seen so far are things that discharge CE47 but there must be something that charges it up. It could be helpful if you were to remove CE47 and take a (top side) pic of the area so I can see tracks going to it if any.

[jphilweybr]

Thanks – amazing how you can spot these things from pics, but I can’t see them in real life.
Tomorrow will be soldering/desoldering day.
So the pin you noted, Im going to call it 13, is definitely +3VS. Fingers crossed.
And SATA does not use 12V? I learn something new again – yes some websites show it, but not obvious in Wikipedia!

[stroker]

I think 12V is present on the SATA power connector. The point I was trying to make was that 3.5" drives use 12V and 5V but 2.5" (laptop) drives only use 5V. This is also true for IDE drives. If you look at the label on some drives they state the current consumption on 5V and 12V I don't think I have ever seen a 2.5" drive mention 12V.

Anyway an hours less sleep tonight usually takes me week to adjust! Good luck!

[jphilweybr]

6655766558
Sorry, I meant SATA 2.5”, which is what I’m using here.
Anyway, a couple of steps forward I think.
I could actually see with the ***** eye what Stroker meant. Pin 13 protrudse further from the board than the others and its cloak of solder sits a little high, whereas all the others sit nicely on the board. I’ve filled round with a bit more solder. I can’t promise that I was actually getting it down into the hole. In fact it kept moving around, forming joints with the adjoining pins, but finally seems to have sealed where the gap was. Pics attached. Actually I see there is a blob of solder worryingly near Pin 14 so I’ll have to fix that.
Secondly, have taken CE47 off and it displays resistance climbing from modest to OL. So I assume OK.
BUT another big step backwards. Before powering down with the mysterious loss of voltages in place, I thought I should check voltages at R98 and R95, which were in fact as before. However in doing so, I must have disturbed the link and trying to restore it, I did something which produced a bang, a burning smell and a soot- covered R93 at the other side of the board. The main fuse had also gone. I have replaced the fuse, and spent an hour (I timed it) trying to release R93, and am not yet there by some margin. Mercifully, we do have a pic of it in its younger days. It’s blue and from the hot side its stripes are brown, white, white, bigger gap and grey. Obviously I can’t power up until it’s replaced, and I suppose I should take a little time out to see if anything else is damaged.
Sorry!

[stroker]

OK - Robot Wars and Top Gear finished - back to business. I wouldn't worry too much about R93 just yet - check for a short across the biggest capacitor C85, if there is a short I would think you have blown IC91. R93 may have burnt out as well, it is a low value so should measure about 0.4 ohms - your problem removing it is probably because the legs are bent over on the bottom of the board - you need to melt the solder and straighten the legs using a small screwdriver of the soldering iron bit, then melt the solder while pulling the resistor out. If you need to replace IC91 check the short is gone before fitting the new one. In fact I would suggest leaving IC91 out until you check the standby voltages are present first.

I was going to mention before that your linking method was a bit dangerous - from the pics I got the impression you had just twisted a wire around the resistor legs, I'm sorry if I have got this wrong. I really wanted you to put a blob of solder on each resistor leg and solder the wire to these without any loose strands sticking out - however I assumed you would be very careful using your method so I decided not to mention it.

Your latest pics of the 15 pin connector show more problems - the first 5 pins at the dodgy end are not good and the first 3 pins the other end I would not be happy with. I think you have a flux pen - put lots of flux on the pins and re-melt every pin on the connector to be sure. Flux is used to help the solder flow freely, don't be afraid of using too much, it should also prevent solder bridging to adjacent pins. The green coating on the board is called solder-resist and is also used to prevent/minimise solder bridging.

I am a little worried that the third pin we were looking at is protruding further than the others - is it still properly attached to wire (leading to the PSU)? Try to check continuity between the PSU and motherboard while wiggling the wire (with your third hand).

I hope I have covered the important points but if in doubt about anything ask questions first.

[jphilweybr]

6656566566
First, picture of sad event and one taken of that area in the early days of this adventure. Yes, I decided not to solder that link, because we had cause to take it on and off. And yes, I was very careful – I always powered down before fiddling with it. Except two days ago when I was missing those voltages, so I wanted to check what was on there. So I was very careful, but ….
I haven’t had much time today, but I tried to check what else might be damaged. I’ve confined myself to the hot side of the PSU board. Tomorrow, I’ll try and upload a CSV file or pic thereof, of my measurements. Meanwhile I have identified the following problems/queries:
1 Sooty R93 – should be 0.39Ω; my little multimeter shows 0.00 Ω, the more sophisticated one shows 0.6 Ω. I’d be best replacing do you think?
2 R84 looks shorted.
3 R80 and R91 (the latter next door to the sooty R93) are not giving me stable readings, albeit they home in and flicker around a given figure. In fact on my more sophisticated multimeter, R91 shows 2.78 with the setting at 20k and 17.8 when set at 200k. All the other resistors I’ve checked (81,82,83,85,94,95,96,97) give rational readings but I have not checked them against the expected nominal values.
4 No bulging capacitors but sooty C92 definitely shorted. I have a replacement. C85, C86, C87 have been tested in situ and all pass the increasing resistance test.
5 D91 shorted.
6 D83, D84 and D87 show 6.7v with the red probe on the arrow, and 5.7v or thereabouts the other way. D85 and D86 look OK (4.6v and I) as does D93 (2.2v and I).
7 I reported on IC91 back last year (did we really have nothing better to do on Dec 27th?), and found continuity between three pairs. I now only have one – 2 to 3 in that post, but neither of the others. I have a replacement.
Perhaps erring on the safe side, I should replace C92 and IC91, which I have and R80, R84, R91 , R93 and D91. If you agree, I’ll probably need help to source these.
Many thanks.

[stroker]

Wow that's a bit of a mess but probably looks worse due to the soot. If you zoom in on the pic you can see IC91 has a crack in it on it's top edge near the screw and the face of the device has blown off so that's fit for scrap for sure.

Your best bet is to remove IC91 to get it out of the way as some of the shorts you are seeing may be due to internal shorts in IC91. Don't fit the new one yet and be careful not to damage the tracks on the board when removing it - I doubt it if we could ever get another board. It might be better to leave it screwed to the heatsink and clear the solder first to avoid stressing the tracks on the board. Although sometimes it's easier to cut the legs off the IC before clearing the solder if you can get cutters in there to do it - then melt the solder on each leg and pull them like teeth. You will have to decide which is best for you and the board.

After removing IC91 check diodes D81,82,83,84 and check for a short across the big cap.
I need to digest your info from today and possibly tomorrow as well before deciding what we need to order.

[jphilweybr]

OK, but just to warn you my experience of electronics as you know is virtually non-existent. My experience of pulling teeth is totally so.

[jphilweybr]

I’ve snipped off the legs of IC91. Re-checking I find:
D91, C92 still shorted; D87 still showing voltages both ways as now is D93 – I got misled because it occasionally shows infinity, but next time it doesn’t. D83 and D84 are now OK, as are D81 and D82 which I overlooked yesterday. Big cap, C85, still OK.
R93 body is 10cm long, R91 11mm, both about 3mm diameter. The R91 resistance starts off at about 100kΩ and then just keeps climbing slowly. Its stripes are red, red, yellow, so should be 110kΩ.

[stroker]

D91 and C92 are connected in parallel (across each other) so I suggest you remove C92 and check D91 and C92 separately to see which is shorted, maybe both.

The problem with D91 its it is a zener diode which come in a range of voltage ratings (I think this one will be around 20V) this will be marked on it's glass body and is usually difficult to read so if it is faulty you will need to remove it carefully and try to read the details - it usually ends in "C" followed by digits referring to the voltage rating.

I am not sure where D87 is - is it next to D91? If this is it you reading could be affected by a shorted D91/C92. Also where is D93?

With IC91 I want you to remove the remains of the legs from the board but do not fit a new IC yet. At some stage I will want you to power on to check some voltages but we are not ready to do this yet.

I think R93 and R91 are 3W resistors but not absolutely sure (they could be 5W) - are you sure only 3mm diameter? R91 is 220K not 110K (red=2). Try to remove R91 I am pretty sure is split/broken.

By the way where did you get the ohm character - I want one!

[jphilweybr]

66576
Well, what do you know! I can help Stroker. If you’re using Microsoft Word, there is a facility somewhere to Insert/Symbol. In Word 2010, there is an Insert tab, and you click on symbol, and choose what you want to insert. And in fact their symbol for symobl is…Ω This means I usually prepare the text of a posting in Word, as I’m doing now, and then copying it onto the website.
D93 is the black job next to D91. D87 is the other side of the board pointing backwards from the transformer towards IC81 (see pic). I do wonder whether D87 got shorted to R98 during the accident.
I’ve taken off C92 and it is OK – passes the increasing resistance test. There is continuity across D91 though.
Will get on with the other jobs, maybe tomorrow.

[stroker]

Thanks with the ohm symbol I remembered that it is pretty common to use "R" instead so 100R means 100 ohms. I usually just type my replies into the web page but it's good to know these things.

You will have to remove D91 and check it off board remember we need to know what voltage rating it is (I'm guessing 22V). The same goes for D87 which is also a zener diode. I do not think D93 is a zener but you're probably better off doing the same with that.

I have been a bit side-tracked today - looking at your motherboard pics. It seems to me that we should not underestimate the effects of the poor soldering on the 15 pin power connector on the motherboard and I would not be surprised if this is the main cause of our problems. Of the 15 pins 7 need attention one end of the connector and 3 pins at the other end.

By the way you had difficulty soldering the third pin because there will be heavy internal tracks inside the board which will conduct the heat away from your soldering iron. You will need to leave the iron on the joint for a long time before the solder will melt properly and use lots of flux. It is very important to get the solder to flow freely otherwise you will have a high resistance joint which is no good for the high currents involved. Not all the pins are high current but 3V3 and 5V definitely are, you will find it much easier to solder the last 2 pins the other end of the connector which carry +FL and -FL which do need re-soldering and I believe are something to do with the filaments in the front panel display! Of course a more powerful soldering iron would also help.

[jphilweybr]

66577
The Satpimps email alert system seems to have stopped working, so have just picked this up.
Meanwhile, I have taken off IC91, R91, R93 and D91. From the pics the resistors are about 3mm at the waist and maybe 4mm at the ends. As you’re about it, how do I clean the iron bits – this having been a problem the last two days? There are YouTube posts which talk about tinning, cleaning with p[lumbers’ flux etc. Is there a simple solution?
I have a reasonably powerful magnifying glass, but have not got anywhere near reading D91. I think I identified which side the letters were on and took about seven pics, but totally failed to hold it in the right position. Will try again!

[stroker]

I got an alert when you posted - click thread tools unsubcribe and subscribe again and see what happens.

I think the resistors may only be 1W but if we had higher wattage it would not matter perhaps you can measure the distance between holes in the board so I know the max length we could use.

As for cleaning iron bit I have always just used a wet sponge, I don't know if they are a special type - try searching for soldering iron sponge. Also look for soldering iron tip cleaner - steel wool type thing, I have only used these a few times but they can be useful. You should only tin the end of the bit otherwise it could collect a large blob of solder which could drop off randomly in places where it's not wanted. To not file you bit - modern ones are iron coated - can't remember why.

Your pic of D91 I can see two characters when zoomed in - look a "9" or "6" and "0" or "C", really need to see it from different angles. I would prefer to get the right value rather than guess. The ones I used to use years ago were BZY88Cvv and BZX61Cvv where vv is the voltage but not sure "61" is the right number - it was a very long time ago. So if they are similar to those you're looking for "C" followed by 2 digits something like 22.

[jphilweybr]

665786657966580665816658266583
R91 and R93 hole centres are 15mm.
Some better pictures of D91 which you can blow up; look in particular at those I labelled A, B and C. I took them in that order turning the cylinder upwards a bit each time.. So they seem to read:
IN or 1N with possibly another character hidden by the white stripe
52
51
Hope that makes some sense.

[stroker]

That took a bit of finding, I wasn't sure which came first the 51 or 52. Anyway 1N5251B is a 22V 500mW zener diode, a pack of 5 for £1.50 that should last a while.
I'll email you a shopping list later.

Do we need a replacement for D93?
Please remove D87 and have a look at it if you think it's faulty.

We also need R91 and R93 is there anything else?

[jphilweybr]

So you guessed right about D91, but glad we’ve been able to check.
D93 is OK , 6.7v and I. D87 gives a voltage both ways. However, I think it’s identical to D91 – I can see the 52, so will have a spare anyway. (I need to take a few days off, and avoid getting soldering kit out again, so a good time to do it would be while waiting for components to arrive.)
My only thoughts are C93 next to the burnt out resistors and C88 across the board, next to D87, which was bent over. Are these caps? If so C88 passes the increasing resistance test. C93 registers a resistance for a split second then goes straight to OL. If you think there might be a problem I’d prefer to order a replacement now, even if it turns out to be a waste of money. It, and C88, are marked:
E
471
I’ve checked all the resistors and diodes and caps on the hot side of the board, but not the blue jobs near the mains supply, nor IC81 or PC41. I assumed that nothing would have got through to the cold side.
Ah, just noticed another brown two legged feller near PC41. It show OL. It’s markings are:
B, possibly with a + to the right of the B or just a black spot
102
Is there anything else I should check?

[jphilweybr]

New components have been ordered, so there will be a delay of at least a few days. In fact, for one resistor, they're only promising delivery on April 10th.

[jphilweybr]

New components have arrived, though looks too nice to be indoors, so maybe Monday before I get round to thing.
Stroker, do you want me to install everything, including IC91?

[stroker]

I agree it's way too nice to be indoors! I would recommend leaving IC91 out for the time being and replace everything else. Then power on with the mainboard disconnected and check the standby supplies, that is everything apart from the main 5V and 3V3. I'd do it this way just in case we have missed something and we have another incident although I think this is unlikely.

If all is ok fit IC91 but do not use the link on R95/98 anymore. I recently found that Q101 on the motherboard (next to the power connector where we found the fuses) is used to supply 5VS to the P/S connection on the power supply board, the collector and emitter of Q101 effectively connect 5VS to P/S so you should be able to short these together to turn on the main supplies. So I suggest you use a piece of solid wire to short 5VS and P/S in the connector on the PSU. Initially power on with the motherboard disconnected just in case.

You haven't said if you have received your high power (100W?) soldering iron yet. If/when you do I want you to touch up the joints on the 15 pin connector on the motherboard, use plenty of flux and add more solder if needed. Keep the iron on each joint long enough to get the solder to flow freely, I cannot emphasis this enough we need really good solid connections on here. Having said that do not go mad and leave the iron on way too long as you risk overheating the board, the low voltage pins like 5V and 3V3 will need more heat than the likes of FL- and FL+

If you are worried about this solder one or two joints and post a pic so I can see before you do the others. I am hoping that these bad joints are the real reason we cannot get the box to power up properly, bad power supplies to the motherboard circuitry may not be sufficient to be passed on to the front panel and prevent the display and switches from working.

[jphilweybr]

OK, back to work Stroker! Monday promises to be a bit of a dull day. Actually, I didn’t order a 100w iron, but I did find my old one, so I do have two 30w ones and four bits. If you think 100w is essential for the connector on the motherboard I’ll get one. Or perhaps try with what I’ve got and take some pics. Another novice question, what is the technique? Do I apply some flux to the joint, melt it, then melt the solder and expect to see it fill the hole? Sorry – basic question!

[stroker]

I gave you quite a few things to do in the last post, I did this because I thought we may be too busy enjoying the weather to be posting messages. So I wasn't really expecting you to do it all on the same day.

I suggest you concentrate on the the PSU to begin with although if you find you have the time try soldering the FL+ and FL- end of the 15 pin connector on the main board. These I expect to not be so heavy as the 5V and 3V3 pins and so should be easier to solder and my thinking is that if the FL supplies are used on the display you may produce signs of life (this is probably just wishful thinking).

When you come to the 5V and 3V3 pins I am not sure how heavy the power tracks in the board will be. So don't expect these to heat up quickly when you apply the soldering iron, it may take 30 seconds or more before you see any sign of the solder melting. If the tracks are really heavy you may find that the iron cannot supply enough heat to raise the temperature enough, you will have to suck it and see.

I am not an expert at soldering but I remember being told by a soldering trainer that you should heat the joint first and apply solder once it has heated up. However in practice I tend to put a little fresh solder on the iron first then heat the joint and add more solder (if needed) when I see the old solder melting freely. Using flux should also help to spread the heat and in any case shouldn't do any harm.

I'll try to explain why a badly soldered joint is such a big deal on power supply connections. For example you have a 5V supply connected through a bad joint which adds 0.1 ohms into the supply path and the current along the path is 5A, there will be a voltage drop across the bad joint of 0.5V (ohms law V=I*R) so only 4.5V will arrive at the load. Most 5V devices only work reliably down to 4.75V so 4.5V is not enough for them to work properly.

[DCG]

did you recive my pm requesting which account you wanted deleting as ive had no reply

[stroker]

I'm sorry DCG but I have made no such request and have not received any pm from you. Do you have your wires crossed?

[DCG]

that wasn't directed at you m8

[jphilweybr]

I’ve finally got round to fixing all the replacement components other than IC91. Checked diodes, resistances and capacitors. Diodes fitted with black stripe at the arrow end. Inclined to pause before powering up, perhaps even sleep on it. Or shall we go for it Stroker?
There is no continuity between and pins in the new IC91. Can I take it that’s normal until it gets powered up and some switching takes place inside?

[stroker]

Good to see you back.

Power up whenever you feel up to it - I suggest you do these tests with the mainboard disconnected. Check the standby voltages ie. everything except 5V and 3V3 (no link required). Also measure voltage from the mains end of R98 and IC91 heatsink which should see about 22V - this is the standby supply to IC91. If you get anything other than 22V we need to investigate before fitting IC91.

If all is well fit IC91 - you may need heatsink paste or they sometimes use a silicone type washer - you should see this when removing the old IC91 if you haven't already done this. Link 5VS and P/S at the DC output connector with a solid core wire then power on and check you have 5V and 3V3 as well as the standby supplies. Linking this is hopefully safer than the R95/98 link we used before but to work this needs a few more components to be working as well - hopefully this should not be a problem.

If everything is ok you can try connecting the mainboard (obviously power off first) and we should be back to square one (or is it two) again.

The next step is to sort out the bad solder joints on the 15 pin power connector on the mainboard. As I said before attempt to sort out the low current pins first as these should not sink too much heat from the soldering iron. Post some pics if you want me to check what you have done. If you attempt the high current pins you iron may not be able to supply enough heat to get good results. Check my comments in recent posts and let me know how you get on.

[stroker]

I forgot to say - don't worry about the new IC91's lack of continuity most likely the continuity you saw previously was caused by components external to IC91. It might be worth double checking you have the right replacement part.

[jphilweybr]

Some good news. We have the expected voltages at the output end of the PSU, albeit the +8v came in at 7.1v. +5VS is the normal 5.1V. As expected, no +5v nor +3VS and no P/S.
At R98 and R95, I’m getting 1.3v. On re-checking, I find I’m not getting reliable continuity between the cold end of R91 and the hot end of R98, so will try re-soldering that. I’m getting 113.6v/108v at either end of R91 and 403v/332c across R92 near the transformers. Is that OK? If you’re happy, shall I go ahead and fit IC91? Or do we need to get 22v to R98 (which is what we had before)?

[stroker]

I think we need the 22V for IC91 to work. Double check you have D91 the right way around and check the diode next to it is not shorted (was this replaced?). You should have continuity between R91 and R98 as you say - I think I need a pic of the underside of the board covering R98 to D91 and IC91. If you have a high voltage on R91 it could damage C92 - what voltage rating is C92? C92 could get very hot and even explode!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jphilweybr]

666736667466675
Actually I am getting continuity between R91 and R98, and I always checked for continuity between each pin I fitted (not the solder) and a distant point on the same track before trimming the pin. However this particular doesn’t always show up with continuity.
D91 and D93 are Ok, and D91 pointing same way as before. D93 was not replaced. Pic attached.
A pic of the underside in all its horror, together with approx the same area some weeks ago. The fact is I had a lot of problems getting solder hot enough to free the folded over part of the pin, and even to resolder yesterday. I’d get a small blob near the hole, but the next thing I knew I had a little ball bearing running around the boar – in fact just spotted a tiny one from the photo that I hadn’t cleared. I have a hotter iron on order and should be here in a day or two. I hope the damage is repairable.
C92 is 50v 22µF. So I’ve done something serious to let 100v get to it. I should have mentioned that there is no voltage at R93 next to R91. Could the two faults be connected?

[stroker]

Yes you are right it is a bit of a horror picture - the only option is to do some serious patching up. Please remove R91 and R93 clear solder from their holes and take another pic so I can formulate a plan - I am assuming you have more replacements for these resistors. I will probably need to show you the next step using a pic - I wonder if I will be able to post it?

[jphilweybr]

Sorry, I forgot to say you should be sitting down with someone at hand with a cold sponge to mop your forehead before looking at my pics.
Looks like my new soldering iron arrives Thursday (from my normal electrical wholesaler). So, best wait until then to minimise further damage. And yes I have plenty of those resistors - ordered two of each before realsiing they came in packs of ten!
Thanks for, in the cir***stances, a measured response.

[stroker]

I would not have thought you would need a high power iron to work on the PSU board. I hope we can patch this up although it won't be pretty when we've finished. I am still hoping to see the box work but if was a cat it would be really short of lives by now. By the way the PSU board is only single sided (tracks on one side only and no internal ones) and does not have plated through holes and so solder will not be drawn into the holes. The cause of your difficult in soldering is due to damaged tracks and missing pads - nothing to solder to - the one leg of R91, for instance is surrounded by fibreglass and not copper.

I've got things to do tomorrow so do not expect quick replies.

[jphilweybr]

66684
Pic attache66684d.66684

[stroker]

Thanks I need to think about this.

I am beginning to think your soldering iron bit could be a problem - does solder stick to it? The first time you use a new bit you need to apply solder to it as it warms up so that you coat just the tip with solder this is very important otherwise you will struggle to solder with it. You need to keep the tip coated with solder at all times and remove excess solder and crap with a wet sponge (or just flick it off into a bin). If you have a spare bit perhaps it may be worth changing it. Modern bits are coated with iron and you are not meant to file them because you will remove the coating. If it is your only bit or if you are not worried about it's lifespan you can file the end down to the copper and then coat it with solder as it warms up. I will have to leave you to decide what's best.

[jphilweybr]

Ah, that explains a few things. Yes, solder has been sticking to the tip. Will try the treatment before the next job. That’s assuming you think a repair can be done – fingers crossed.

[stroker]

Try this link - if I am allowed to post it - Moderators this is just a link to soldering tips.

_http://www.instructables.com/id/Soldering-101%3A-Lesson-1%3A-Tin-the-Tip/

[jphilweybr]

Long silence again – lots of distractions.
Pic of re-fitted C92. Not very happy with it. I had mislaid the new cps, so had to use the old one, and that meant I had to hold it in one hand. I used my new iron which boasts a ceramic tip. I put a lot of solder on, but a lot of it seems to have stayed on the iron tip. I’ve now found the new caps, so perhaps I should have another go.
As regards the power connector, Pin 3 had retracted and in doing so had gone at an angle so it wasn’t lined up with the others. I’ve bent it a little, and have been able to fix the connector, so perhaps OK. Pic of connector and the soldering attached. The dark patch is where the flux has dried.
6680666807

[stroker]

I think for now we should concentrate on the motherboard because the PSU is such a mess we need to get the soldering right before we attempt repairing it.

On the motherboard pin3 does look better but still not as good as I would like. Also the flux residue and other debris is a concern, although zooming in on your pics makes things look worse than they probably are. Having said that we cannot afford for any of the debris to cause shorts - no more bangs!
See if you can clean things up using an old toothbrush and some alcohol based fluid, perhaps meths. You can buy PCB cleaner but if you have something suitable we can save time and money.
Alcohol is also usable as a flux, some fluxes are over 90% alcohol, so perhaps you can try to use it instead of the flux to see if you can get the solder to flow better. If you compare the pins you have not soldered you will see how much neater they are with the solder flowed to the bottom of the pin and no stray bits left further up the pin. Pins 1 to 7 need attention and also the last 3 pins but concentrate on a few pins until you get good results and perhaps only add a small amount of solder.
If you have an old/scrap circuit board it may be useful to practice on that first, remove solder and re-solder. Good luck and let me know how you get on.